The Final: Argentina v France

[EFC78]

Surely every football fan suffered a period of championship manager addiction.

Back to topic.
Maradona was awesome… messi is awesome.

Maradonas peak World Cup in 86 performance was probably better messi performance in any World Cup.

Messi has been awesome for 20 years. Maradona was awesome for prob 5 (Barcelona and post Napoli weren’t hugely successful)

Messi goal output is incomparable with Maradona, the trophies haul is incompatible. Messi is on another level here.

Messi for every time.
Maradona for a night out though

Championship manager, now you're talking. Was rubbish at it though so only played it a year or 2 in the late 90s.

Long before any of these stats like defensive line breaks came out and players were described as Quarterbacks ?

 

[Yarrgh]

Oh yippee, a Messi vs Maradona debate.

Who'd you rather watch at their peak? The high technical level performance of Messi or the inspired madness of Maradona?

The highs of Diego are above Messi's but he was never as consistent. I for one value those moments of genius that push you above elite level. I don't want to stroke my chin saying "nice" when I see the best player in the world, I want to be amazed and confounded.

And that's why Diego is my choice between the two.

 

[Papa Shango]

You need to give up this front you're putting on. I doubt you really believe what you're typing you just can't back down from your Maradona stance.

Messi wipes the floor with Maradona for assists and goals, longevity and overall achievements. The only thing Maradona had over him was taken away by a 35 year old Messi taking the World Cup by storm scoring 2 key goals in the Final. When Napoli won their first title, Maradona scored an underwhelming 10 goals during the season ?. Compare that to Messi in his influential seasons.

Your descriptions of the 2 players are laughable too. There isn't a single thing Maradona had in his locker that Messi doesn't have. And Messi could carve open defences for fun with his unrivalled vision. If Maradona was as good, find some footage of him playing comparable through balls to Messi repeatedly?

Maradona was also generally a 1 in 2 or a 1 in 3 man throughout his career and also for Argentina & Napoli where some would have us believe he was the only player in the team that ever contributed. Messi set record after record with his goal scoring feats.

Messi yesterday put to bed any claims from Maradona or C Ronaldo fans that they could rival Messi in the conversation. The only legitimate one left is Pele, but overall I think Messi has cemented his status

Only a fool would base greatness on mere stats.

If we are doing that then Ali Daei is a contender for best player ever. It means nothing.

 

[Stevie Nicks Bootleg]

When Napoli won their first title, Maradona scored an underwhelming 10 goals during the season ?.

You really know your Serie A in the 1980s don't you? All that wiki research has really paid dividends.

 

[davek]

Disagree mate, those players distinguished those clubs and turned them into European Super Club elite. I mean Ajax winning three on the trot European cups, incredible. Equally Benfica.

Not taking anything away from Diego, he was incredible, but Messi, Cryuff and Eusebio had massive impacts at club level and made super powers out of their clubs, it’s not a great comparison.

The three foreigner rule was in place during Diego’s time, wasn’t it, arguably narrowing the competition field, comparatively.

That's a fair set of points, but you leave out one thing: both Eusebio (who, of course, came into the Benfica European Championship winning team of 1960/61 not having played a part in that in that European Cup win, so a top top club) started out their careers at those clubs. They were acclimitised into their respective clubs from the off: Eusebio as an 18 year old and Cruyff from a lad. They had that chance to acclimitise and grow with their young team mates (as did Messi at Barcelona).

Maradona goes straight into a midtable outfit when he was already a superstar. That in and of itself was remarkable. Then he grabs Napoli and Naples by the scruff of the neck and almost single-handedly takes them to three top trophies (two domestic titles and a Uefa Cup) and a clutch of Serie A RU spots.

Imagine Mbappe turning up at Southampton, staying 6 seasons and doing that. THAT is how incredible Maradona's feat is.

Neither Cruyff and certainly not Eusebio did that for a club, and if you tell me Messi could - a player who needs top quality around him at all times - then you're not taking this issue seriously.

 

[davek]

No, it's not about tripe achievements like goal scoring feats that Messi and Pele destroy Maradona over. Who'd want incredible records like that eh?

Who mentioned "take ons"? And I've never played football manager.

It sounds like you haven't actually watched Messi all that often if you're trying to use Maradonas "skills" as a factor in him being better than Messi. As I said, anything Maradona could do, Messi can do. The England Quarter Final goal is arguably the greatest of all time but Messi matched that type of goal (not in significance I accept) with his Getafe one.

How many others has Maradona actually got in that category though? Messi has loads close to it. In huge games like Semi Finals and Finals too

Until Sunday Messi was considered only in terms as possibly being the best player of his generation. If you think a penalty shoot out win over a French team shorn of Benzema, Pogba and Kante changes that then good luck to you. (Imagine Maradona's WC winning team to have played West Germany without Matthaus, Brehme and Rummenigge).

The greatest player of all time will still be Diego Armando Maradona.

 

[davek]

Glad you managed to hate the whole World Cup and find no joy at all in your commenting for a whole month

I didn't. I loved it. I just put the BBC propaganda and hypocrisy to one side and watched. Job done.

 

[EFC78]

Only a fool would base greatness on mere stats.

If we are doing that then Ali Daei is a contender for best player ever. It means nothing.

That's why I mentioned wanting to see footage of Maradona showing the vision Messi has. Because from everything i've seen of Maradona, Messi can do it all. And he's now matched him in the "leading his country to a World Cup trophy win" stakes too.

Messi is able to do everything Maradona could do with a football.

 

[Stevie Nicks Bootleg]

That's why I mentioned wanting to see footage of Maradona showing the vision Messi has.

You won't, because Messi's clearly superior in that dept.

 

[EFC78]

You really know your Serie A in the 1980s don't you? All that wiki research has really paid dividends.

Just pointing out, Maradona does not stand out in terms of goal contributions in key seasons like the other greats have. His goal scoring record is nowhere near the level of Messi, yet they were both very similar type players. Think that says a lot.

 

[ParkhallToffee]

I wonder, if England had won the World Cup would Argentina's nation broadcaster heap such gushing praise upon the Three Lions? ?

 

[Stevie Nicks Bootleg]

Just pointing out, Maradona does not stand out in terms of goal contributions in key seasons like the other greats have. His goal scoring record is nowhere near the level of Messi, yet they were both very similar type players. Think that says a lot.

No one's goal record was great in Serie A in the 80s though, in terms of stats compared with other eras/leagues though- the top goalscorers were often only getting 15 in total for the whol season, so surely you can gauge how hard it was for attacking players back then- in the most defensive league in the world rather than just looking at wiki and laughing like a 5-year old. And who's comparing Messi and Maradona in terms of goals anyway? We know there's a clear winner there.

 

[Papa Shango]

That's why I mentioned wanting to see footage of Maradona showing the vision Messi has. Because from everything i've seen of Maradona, Messi can do it all. And he's now matched him in the "leading his country to a World Cup trophy win" stakes too.

Messi is able to do everything Maradona could do with a football.

Did Messi "lead" his country to a world cup?

He was part of the team who won it. One of its better parts but you could say Martinez, MacAllister etc lead them to victory too but nobody things they are the best ever!

All the goals Messi (and Ronaldo for that matter) scored just shows how shambolic a league La Liga had become.

Messi could score 15-20 goals a season and still be in the conversation for best of all time. He is not a great purely from scoring lots of goals. That would make Harry Kane better than Maradona.

 

[everton fan number one]

Did Messi "lead" his country to a world cup?

He was part of the team who won it. One of its better parts but you could say Martinez, MacAllister etc lead them to victory too but nobody things they are the best ever!

All the goals Messi (and Ronaldo for that matter) scored just shows how shambolic a league La Liga had become.

Messi could score 15-20 goals a season and still be in the conversation for best of all time. He is not a great purely from scoring lots of goals. That would make Harry Kane better than Maradona.

About the standard of La Liga

 

[Neiler]

That's a fair set of points, but you leave out one thing: both Eusebio (who, of course, came into the Benfica European Championship winning team of 1960/61 not having played a part in that in that European Cup win, so a top top club) started out their careers at those clubs. They were acclimitised into their respective clubs from the off: Eusebio as an 18 year old and Cruyff from a lad. They had that chance to acclimitise and grow with their young team mates (as did Messi at Barcelona).

Maradona goes straight into a midtable outfit when he was already a superstar. That in and of itself was remarkable. Then he grabs Napoli and Naples by the scruff of the neck and almost single-handedly takes them to three top trophies (two domestic titles and a Uefa Cup) and a clutch of Serie A RU spots.

Imagine Mbappe turning up at Southampton, staying 6 seasons and doing that. THAT is how incredible Maradona's feat is.

Neither Cruyff and certainly not Eusebio did that for a club, and if you tell me Messi could - a player who needs top quality around him at all times - then you're not taking this issue seriously.

Take on board your points mate and not diminishing Diego's achievements as you know I think he's one of the greatest, however taking your logic and the application, you could say someone like Jamie Vardy matched those achievements - dragging a relegation club, with no history in the top flight to the PL title - a league filled with the worlds best players, he won the cup as well - fine achievements but not distinguishable to have a nose out in front as the greats compatively.

Diego was wonderful, i just don't think what he achieved at club level is that remarkable, socially and culturally definitely given the North/South divide but from a sporting perspective, its not that remarkable when you consider it was done over almost a decade - not to be sniffed at but not exceptional, especially given the comparisons you make. Diego was a better player then say Gullit (though world class himself) Gullit, won three titles and two European cups over the same era in Serie A and they both had to play under the three foreigner rule.