The GOT Book Club

[summerisle]

Reading this one right now:

Biography of a U.S. G.I. who defected to live in the GDR.

Jammy get.

In a similar vein, incredible story.

 

[davek]

In a similar vein, incredible story.

Imprisoned for 40 years after deserting? The North Koreans took no chances with spies!

That East German / Victor Grossman book was very good, BTW.

He pulled no punches on the GDR and was critical of that state, but his view that it was a deformed worler's state with a pretty flattened out society apart frpm a dfew thousand in the elite was persuasive. And the light he cast on the 'dissenters' was amazing in that you see the scope they had in the GDR to do what they wanted under the protectorate of the untouchable Lutheran Church - which threw me a bit when you're brought up on a staple diet of how draconian that state was.

Little wonder that the horrible munchkin Merkel was a Lutheran Pastor's daughter.

 

[Shevin Keedy]

I'm also about a third unto El Diego - the Maradona autobiography. It is pretty light weight so far considering the life he had.

 

[davek]

I've had this book for about 3 years and still not got round to reading it. Anyone read it?

It got a lot of buzz around it when first published. Seems like one you read in the colder weather though!

 

[dholliday]

Imprisoned for 40 years after deserting? The North Koreans took no chances with spies!

That East German / Victor Grossman book was very good, BTW.

He pulled no punches on the GDR and was critical of that state, but his view that it was a deformed worler's state with a pretty flattened out society apart frpm a dfew thousand in the elite was persuasive. And the light he cast on the 'dissenters' was amazing in that you see the scope they had in the GDR to do what they wanted under the protectorate of the untouchable Lutheran Church - which threw me a bit when you're brought up on a staple diet of how draconian that state was.

Little wonder that the horrible munchkin Merkel was a Lutheran Pastor's daughter.

i live in the old DDR (aka GDR) and often visit regions of it. You may be surprised at the sentiment towards the old communist state: generally the folk miss the feeling of togetherness: people felt they had a role in society, there was meaning and community.

i've talked to enough of them to come to the conclusion that this nostalgic view appears to be the common sentiment. This sentiment shouldn't, and doesn't, detract from the crimes the DDR State perpetrated against dissidents....or even the idea of locking out other cultures.


Personally i prefer the West's ideals of individual autonomy, but i also understand that the West doesn't do community very well. The libraries could do with more DDR books less focussed on the Stasi aspect and more on what it did well.

 

[magicjuan]

View attachment 173856

Just finished this :

Will Sergeant - Bunnyman A Memoir.

The first part of the book, about his childhood in Melling, is pretty dull tbh, but once it kicks into the Liverpool music scene / Liverpool life of the late 70’s, it becomes a fascinating read and ends, just as the Bunnymen are hitting the big time. ( hopefully there’ll be a follow another book )

@magicjuan you’ll enjoy this.

Aye, probably would. Seen that mentioned a bit back and had it on my list. Forgot about it so thanks

 

[davek]

i live in the old DDR (aka GDR) and often visit regions of it. You may be surprised at the sentiment towards the old communist state: generally the folk miss the feeling of togetherness: people felt they had a role in society, there was meaning and community.

i've talked to enough of them to come to the conclusion that this nostalgic view appears to be the common sentiment. This sentiment shouldn't, and doesn't, detract from the crimes the DDR State perpetrated against dissidents....or even the idea of locking out other cultures.


Personally i prefer the West's ideals of individual autonomy, but i also understand that the West doesn't do community very well. The libraries could do with more DDR books less focussed on the Stasi aspect and more on what it did well.

I'm not surprised at that at all. I think Ostalgia was very quickly onto the scene post-unification. The East Germans fell for the allure of consumerism and paid a heavy price. I think even now they suffer the worst of unemployment levels and living standards in the 5 eastern regions is lower than those in the west; and the far right / neo-nazis have a foothold.

 

[Jebus_lives]

i live in the old DDR (aka GDR) and often visit regions of it. You may be surprised at the sentiment towards the old communist state: generally the folk miss the feeling of togetherness: people felt they had a role in society, there was meaning and community.

i've talked to enough of them to come to the conclusion that this nostalgic view appears to be the common sentiment. This sentiment shouldn't, and doesn't, detract from the crimes the DDR State perpetrated against dissidents....or even the idea of locking out other cultures.


Personally i prefer the West's ideals of individual autonomy, but i also understand that the West doesn't do community very well. The libraries could do with more DDR books less focussed on the Stasi aspect and more on what it did well.

I don't think that's surprising at all. It's often noted in studies and testimony in travel programmes. Especially the older generation.

 

[wm02]

i live in the old DDR (aka GDR) and often visit regions of it. You may be surprised at the sentiment towards the old communist state: generally the folk miss the feeling of togetherness: people felt they had a role in society, there was meaning and community.

i've talked to enough of them to come to the conclusion that this nostalgic view appears to be the common sentiment. This sentiment shouldn't, and doesn't, detract from the crimes the DDR State perpetrated against dissidents....or even the idea of locking out other cultures.


Personally i prefer the West's ideals of individual autonomy, but i also understand that the West doesn't do community very well. The libraries could do with more DDR books less focussed on the Stasi aspect and more on what it did well.

Just curious, are there any authors that you would recommend that write about life in the DDR? That’s an itch I would like to scratch.
Got my Masters in Germanistik so it doesn’t need to be translated into English. During grad school, my courses in contemporary literature were heavy on Handke and the immigrant (mostly Turkish) experience in Germany.

 

[dholliday]

I'm not surprised at that at all. I think Ostalgia was very quickly onto the scene post-unification. The East Germans fell for the allure of consumerism and paid a heavy price.

I wouldn't call it a heavy price, as equally as they have nostalgia for the communal feel of DDR society, as equally they appreciate the increased individual autonomy of reunification.

It's not that many would want the DDR back, they don't. It's just that it has quite a few profound positives along with the dark negatives.

Life is actually pretty nice in the old East these days: lovely nature, chilled folk, cheap & cheerful, own culture.

I think even now they suffer the worst of unemployment levels and living standards in the 5 eastern regions is lower than those in the west; and the far right / neo-nazis have a foothold.

Which neo-nazis are you referring to? What foothold?

I've lived here for 16 years now...there's far more anti-nazi scene than anything resembling pro-nazi. We have a 450-capacity refugee centre a stone's throw from me: there's been a prominent "REFUGEES WELCOME" graffiti the whole time, never once vandalised or defaced. Also amongst common graffiti and various demos are anti-nazi sentiments. Never once seen a pro-nazi demo. They do exist (as much as the law permits), but are insignificant.


The 'far-right', or 'neo-nazi', has become a mythical bogeyman.

AfD (most popular party in old DDR, and kryptonite for all other parties) are often renounced as a far-right nazi party, but have merely traditional socially-conservative policies with a nationalistic twist. They support the rights of anyone legally here and legally wanting to come here. In view of that "REFUGEES WELCOME" sign there'll be AfD campaign posters too. Rightwing is fair, far-right neo-nazism is overwrought labelism.


Compare their policies with the CDU of the 70's/80's...pretty much the same. A truly far-right nazi-esque party would be something like the NPD, who are so tiny they're barely worth mentioning.


An interesting debate is why the German media and political establishment hate the AfD, and why they label them as being more extreme than they really are.

Just curious, are there any authors that you would recommend that write about life in the DDR? That’s an itch I would like to scratch.
Got my Masters in Germanistik so it doesn’t need to be translated into English. During grad school, my courses in contemporary literature were heavy on Handke and the immigrant (mostly Turkish) experience in Germany.

you may enjoy these two lighthearted efforts, written for the common-folk of the time to get their Ostalgie fix:

Amazon product ASIN 3866142641
Amazon product ASIN 3743151839

 

[wm02]

I wouldn't call it a heavy price, as equally as they have nostalgia for the communal feel of DDR society, as equally they appreciate the increased individual autonomy of reunification.

It's not that many would want the DDR back, they don't. It's just that it has quite a few profound positives along with the dark negatives.

Life is actually pretty nice in the old East these days: lovely nature, chilled folk, cheap & cheerful, own culture.



Which neo-nazis are you referring to? What foothold?

I've lived here for 16 years now...there's far more anti-nazi scene than anything resembling pro-nazi. We have a 450-capacity refugee centre a stone's throw from me: there's been a prominent "REFUGEES WELCOME" graffiti the whole time, never once vandalised or defaced. Also amongst common graffiti and various demos are anti-nazi sentiments. Never once seen a pro-nazi demo. They do exist (as much as the law permits), but are insignificant.


The 'far-right', or 'neo-nazi', has become a mythical bogeyman.

AfD (most popular party in old DDR, and kryptonite for all other parties) are often renounced as a far-right nazi party, but have merely traditional socially-conservative policies with a nationalistic twist. They support the rights of anyone legally here and legally wanting to come here. In view of that "REFUGEES WELCOME" sign there'll be AfD campaign posters too. Rightwing is fair, far-right neo-nazism is overwrought labelism.


Compare their policies with the CDU of the 70's/80's...pretty much the same. A truly far-right nazi-esque party would be something like the NPD, who are so tiny they're barely worth mentioning.


An interesting debate is why the German media and political establishment hate the AfD, and why they label them as being more extreme than they really are.




you may enjoy these two lighthearted efforts, written for the common-folk of the time to get their Ostalgie fix:

Amazon product ASIN 3866142641
Amazon product ASIN 3743151839

Appreciate that. Thanks!

 

[davek]

I wouldn't call it a heavy price, as equally as they have nostalgia for the communal feel of DDR society, as equally they appreciate the increased individual autonomy of reunification.

It's not that many would want the DDR back, they don't. It's just that it has quite a few profound positives along with the dark negatives.

Life is actually pretty nice in the old East these days: lovely nature, chilled folk, cheap & cheerful, own culture.



Which neo-nazis are you referring to? What foothold?

I've lived here for 16 years now...there's far more anti-nazi scene than anything resembling pro-nazi. We have a 450-capacity refugee centre a stone's throw from me: there's been a prominent "REFUGEES WELCOME" graffiti the whole time, never once vandalised or defaced. Also amongst common graffiti and various demos are anti-nazi sentiments. Never once seen a pro-nazi demo. They do exist (as much as the law permits), but are insignificant.


The 'far-right', or 'neo-nazi', has become a mythical bogeyman.

AfD (most popular party in old DDR, and kryptonite for all other parties) are often renounced as a far-right nazi party, but have merely traditional socially-conservative policies with a nationalistic twist. They support the rights of anyone legally here and legally wanting to come here. In view of that "REFUGEES WELCOME" sign there'll be AfD campaign posters too. Rightwing is fair, far-right neo-nazism is overwrought labelism.


Compare their policies with the CDU of the 70's/80's...pretty much the same. A truly far-right nazi-esque party would be something like the NPD, who are so tiny they're barely worth mentioning.


An interesting debate is why the German media and political establishment hate the AfD, and why they label them as being more extreme than they really are.

No, I doubt they would too. But that was not my argumnet. I stated they paid a heavy price as they were promised more than was delivered for them. The gap might be closing but it's still there. And what price do you place on the loss of values in terms of equality, and the stability of employment and free health care?


As for the far right / neo-nazism: it was growing even with the dying carcass of the GDR but it really has taken a foothold in the east. The eastern concentrated AfD are to be seen marching with neo-nazis at anti-immigrant events in Germany and they've normalised the language of right wing extremism. The east is their power base, and it's the power base of a lot of neo-nazi groups too like the Third Way. You live there so you know what a magnet the east has been for these groups.

I dont know what your calculation for a foothold is, but that would easily fall under mine.

 

[dholliday]

You live there so you know what a magnet the east has been for these groups.

Exactly. I live here, and regularly visit places in Sachsen too.

There is no magnet. There is no significant far-right neo-nazi scene. It's a bogeyman.

The eastern concentrated AfD are to be seen marching with neo-nazis at anti-immigrant events in Germany

Source?

 

[davek]

Exactly. I live here, and regularly visit places in Sachsen too.

There is no magnet. There is no significant far-right neo-nazi scene. It's a bogeyman.



Source?

lol lol lol

Hiding in plain sight.

You're having a laugh mate.

They've been at the German-Polish border lately protecting the fatherland from bedraggled refugees - Slavic untermensch no doubt.

Source here arguing the AfD and neo-nazi's have a "symbiotic relationship": https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/world/europe/germany-neo-nazi-protests-chemnitz.html

The AfD is an anti-immigration and anti-Islamic party. Maybe you can inform us why the AfD are opposed on the streets by anti-nazi groups in Germany? Maybe they have it wrong? Maybe the AfD didn't march side by side with Pegida? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-election-afd-idUSKCN1BU1GQ

 

[dholliday]

Hiding in plain sight.

I expect better from you.

They've been at the German-Polish border lately protecting the fatherland from bedraggled refugees.

Who has?

Source here arguing the AfD and neo-nazi's have a "symbiotic relationship": https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/world/europe/germany-neo-nazi-protests-chemnitz.html

I knew you'd reference Chemnitz.

This was an 8,000-strong angry march in response to a local being murdered by refugees, in an area not known for such murders. It was countered by a 65,000 self-proclaimed "anti-nazi" march.

Among that 8,000 were some wronguns: actual far-right racist types who wanted to go wild on innocent random foreigners.

Horrible...i agree. But not indicative of "the far-right having a foothold over the old DDR".

For these reasons:

- the vast majority of the 8,000 protestors were angry concerned citizens, outraged at what happened. But according to police-estimates not members of any particular far-right organisation or with history of such.

In total: 4 people were arrested: 3 of them refugees (for murder) and 1 German for racist violence against a jewish restaurant.

15 individuals (from 8,000) are believed to have belonged to an active neo-nazi scene, and in total 79 individuals were identified as causing damage or using racist threatening language...from 8,000.

Think of the Chemnitz Protest as a mini-version of a BLM riot, where some wronguns get involved.

And don't forget the instant counter-protest of almost ten times as many people, which on its own counters any argument that the smaller group has any kind of foothold.


I knew you'd reference Chemnitz, as that's the only one that ever gets referenced. The media portrayed it as a "far-right neo-nazi" protest, and thus many outsiders will know it as such. The media also latched onto comments by a couple of AfD members and artificially-conflated them to mean AfD support neo-nazi sentiments. Those AfD members merely stated that the protests (note: not the far-right minority violence) were "understandable": i.e. a protest against a violent murder perpetrated by supposed war-fleeing refugees receiving all manner of support, a protest of which a small fraction were confirmed "far-right neo-nazi"...and which were condemned by the same AfD members (which naturally went unreported).

The media shape the narrative. You know this sort of thing goes on.


You wrote the following (emphasis mine):

The eastern concentrated AfD are to be seen marching with neo-nazis at anti-immigrant events in Germany

Source that AfD marched with neo-nazis?

Events plural...got any more other than the Chemnitz one which everyone references?


As I said earlier: a more illuminating debate is why the media & political establishment go all-in on attacking the AfD.

In short: they're an anti-establishment party. That will not do in todays' Brave New World.


Disclaimer: i vote FDP myself, finding AfD not voteworthy due to my classing them as a protest-party rather than a serious option for governance. But they're not the far-right neo-nazi bogeyman. And they don't have any kind of foothold as they're not even in the coalitioned regional governments.

The AfD is an anti-immigration and anti-Islamic party.

They are not. Don't believe the hype.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

ASYL & EINWANDERUNG - Alternative für Deutschland

Drucken

www.afd.de

Maybe you can inform us why the AfD are opposed on the streets by anti-nazi groups in Germany?

Because these self-proclaimed "anti-nazi" groups believe the AfD are made up of nazis...because the media & political establishment told them so.

The media shape the narrative.

Maybe they have it wrong? Maybe the AfD didn't march side by side with Pegida? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-election-afd-idUSKCN1BU1GQ

Look at The Narrative. Look at the opener:

---- "Supporters of both movements stood side by side waving Germany’s black, red and gold flag - a public demonstration of the fellow feeling between AfD and hardline PEGIDA" ----

Not long ago, in 2006 while we hosted the World Cup, there was a big debate at how we've got back our national pride and weren't shy waving the 'black, red and gold"...that this positive nationalism was a good thing, and long may it continue.

We were always at war with Eastasia!

This march you reference numbered in total just over 2,000 people. The AfD leader at the time stated officially the AfD want nothing to do with Pegida...this isn't referenced in your Reuters link, but is obviously a key bit of info. I agree Pegida were more hardline...they're history now, as they were insignificant and unvoteable to begin with.


Remember your bold statement:

the far right / neo-nazis have a foothold.

They do not. They are blown out of all proportion by an establishment terrified at the popularity of a rightwing anti-establishment party, at the possibility of them getting power and changing certain established policies. The reason for this hype is to deter swing voters from voting AfD (as which reasonable person wants to vote for a neo-nazi party?).

It's working in the West...but not in the East. Why is that? Not because the Easteners are bad racists, but because they're wise to narrative-propaganda due to their DDR experience.

Why aren't AfD in power regionally? Because despite having the most votes, the other parties made a coalition against them.


A crazy thing happened a while back which no one wants to talk about: Merkel personally cancelled the winner of a regional electoral vote because the winner was an anti-establishment FDP candidate. She ordered it redone...then the establishment Merkel-approved Left candidate won. Why did she do this? Because the AfD supported the FDP candidate. How come she was able to order this at all?

Good question...which didn't interest many in the media.

Who are the fascists, and who is the Resistance?

The media & political establishment shape the narrative.


Further: the two events you referenced are from 2017 & 2018. Got any more?