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The GOT Book Club
- Thread starter chicoazul
- Start date
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
I think you need to find a dictionary and look up 'foothold'.I expect better from you.
Who has?
I knew you'd reference Chemnitz.
This was an 8,000-strong angry march in response to a local being murdered by refugees, in an area not known for such murders. It was countered by a 65,000 self-proclaimed "anti-nazi" march.
Among that 8,000 were some wronguns: actual far-right racist types who wanted to go wild on innocent random foreigners.
Horrible...i agree. But not indicative of "the far-right having a foothold over the old DDR".
For these reasons:
- the vast majority of the 8,000 protestors were angry concerned citizens, outraged at what happened. But according to police-estimates not members of any particular far-right organisation or with history of such.
In total: 4 people were arrested: 3 of them refugees (for murder) and 1 German for racist violence against a jewish restaurant.
15 individuals (from 8,000) are believed to have belonged to an active neo-nazi scene, and in total 79 individuals were identified as causing damage or using racist threatening language...from 8,000.
Think of the Chemnitz Protest as a mini-version of a BLM riot, where some wronguns get involved.
And don't forget the instant counter-protest of almost ten times as many people, which on its own counters any argument that the smaller group has any kind of foothold.
I knew you'd reference Chemnitz, as that's the only one that ever gets referenced. The media portrayed it as a "far-right neo-nazi" protest, and thus many outsiders will know it as such. The media also latched onto comments by a couple of AfD members and artificially-conflated them to mean AfD support neo-nazi sentiments. Those AfD members merely stated that the protests (note: not the far-right minority violence) were "understandable": i.e. a protest against a violent murder perpetrated by supposed war-fleeing refugees receiving all manner of support, a protest of which a small fraction were confirmed "far-right neo-nazi"...and which were condemned by the same AfD members (which naturally went unreported).
The media shape the narrative. You know this sort of thing goes on.
You wrote the following (emphasis mine):
Source that AfD marched with neo-nazis?
Events plural...got any more other than the Chemnitz one which everyone references?
As I said earlier: a more illuminating debate is why the media & political establishment go all-in on attacking the AfD.
In short: they're an anti-establishment party. That will not do in todays' Brave New World.
Disclaimer: i vote FDP myself, finding AfD not voteworthy due to my classing them as a protest-party rather than a serious option for governance. But they're not the far-right neo-nazi bogeyman. And they don't have any kind of foothold as they're not even in the coalitioned regional governments.
They are not. Don't believe the hype.
Straight from the horse's mouth:
Because these self-proclaimed "anti-nazi" groups believe the AfD are made up of nazis...because the media & political establishment told them so.
The media shape the narrative.
Look at The Narrative. Look at the opener:
---- "Supporters of both movements stood side by side waving Germany’s black, red and gold flag - a public demonstration of the fellow feeling between AfD and hardline PEGIDA" ----
Not long ago, in 2006 while we hosted the World Cup, there was a big debate at how we've got back our national pride and weren't shy waving the 'black, red and gold"...that this positive nationalism was a good thing, and long may it continue.
We were always at war with Eastasia!
This march you reference numbered in total just over 2,000 people. The AfD leader at the time stated officially the AfD want nothing to do with Pegida...this isn't referenced in your Reuters link, but is obviously a key bit of info. I agree Pegida were more hardline...they're history now, as they were insignificant and unvoteable to begin with.
Remember your bold statement:
They do not. They are blown out of all proportion by an establishment terrified at the popularity of a rightwing anti-establishment party, at the possibility of them getting power and changing certain established policies. The reason for this hype is to deter swing voters from voting AfD (as which reasonable person wants to vote for a neo-nazi party?).
It's working in the West...but not in the East. Why is that? Not because the Easteners are bad racists, but because they're wise to narrative-propaganda due to their DDR experience.
Why aren't AfD in power regionally? Because despite having the most votes, the other parties made a coalition against them.
A crazy thing happened a while back which no one wants to talk about: Merkel personally cancelled the winner of a regional electoral vote because the winner was an anti-establishment FDP candidate. She ordered it redone...then the establishment Merkel-approved Left candidate won. Why did she do this? Because the AfD supported the FDP candidate. How come she was able to order this at all?
Good question...which didn't interest many in the media.
Who are the fascists, and who is the Resistance?
The media & political establishment shape the narrative.
Further: the two events you referenced are from 2017 & 2018. Got any more?
The very fact that you had to respond in such a fashion underlines there's an issue.
It's daft to deny there is a neo-nazi problem in Germany that's growing; it's even more daft to deny the epicentre of that is in the east of Germany.
BTW, the answer to your question on the German-Polish flashpoint: 'The Third Way'. Just one of many neo-nazi organisations in existence there.
dholliday
deconstructed rep
I made my case that there is no significant issue. I don't see that you've made a case otherwise.
Never heard of them. Just checked them out. They have 650 members.
Insignificant larpers.
And they're not even from the East lol They were founded in Heidelberg and have their HQ in Rheinland-Pfalz.
How many? How many members? How many with real influence on anything of significance?
Where are they based?
Make your case, if you have one.
dholliday
deconstructed rep
I explained why...i even bolded it a few times.
There's a narrative being pushed, and you've fallen for it. I do my bit to explain things as a somewhat insider. Mayhap useful for anyone reading...mayhap not.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Off Topic
I've hit a raw nerve here.
On The Third Way: the party draws it's support mostly from Thuringia, Brandenburg and Bavaria...first two ex-GDR regions.
The case I'm making is sustained: the area of the old GDR is the part of the country where far right politics are supported, and if you say that a party like the AfD (a party almost exclusively of the east now) either dont have a foothold given their electoral support or that they dont truckle to neo-nazis, then you're flying in the face of the known facts.
Why are you trying to support these people? Look at their policies and ideology - they're an affront to decency.
dholliday
deconstructed rep
Off Topic
You've hit a subject i know a lot about, not a raw nerve as such.
It has 650 members, out of a country of 85 million.
Supported by who? A few hundred larpers?
They're not far-right, ergo the far-right don't have a foothold. They're also not in government, regional or otherwise.
They are the parliamentary opposition party, so it's fine to say AfD generally have a foothold in German politics. But you didn't say that, you said "far-right neo-nazis" have a foothold.
I've demonstrated your 'known facts' aren't facts at all, but narrative-propaganda.
Which people? AfD? I support FDP, as i've stated. I defend AfD from unfair accusations (as i do anyone), but i don't support them.
I linked their policies and ideology. Which bit is an "affront to decency"?
Shevin Keedy
Player Valuation: £35m
No place for nazis on here like. Just saying.
JimmyJeffers
Player Valuation: £70m
Holliday vs Davek.
Holy Heinrich Himmlers.
Who’d have thought that, the good old book thread, where people come to recommend books and talk about them, would turn in a battle between the Commies and the Nazis 
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
You've shifted the goalposts massively. My statements were:
that neo-nazis have a foothold in Germany - they do
that the east of the country is the hub of far right and neo-nazis political group and parties - it is
that far right parties like the AfD have marched with more extreme nazi groups - they have
...which policies of the AfD are an affront to decency?
their resurrection of ethnic-nationalism through the Volkisch movement, something the nazis utlised in the 20s and 30s
criticism of the Holocaust Memorial Museum
opposition to immigration and multi-culturalism and a call for mass deportations
opponents of same sex marriage
climate change deniers
....how on earth do your hand support to that lot?
Shevin Keedy
Player Valuation: £35m
650 may sound like a small number, but how many caused the beer hall putsch ???