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The greatest sportsperson?

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Cork Evertonian said:
Juan Manuel Fangio, the greatest F1 driver of all time.
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Hmm, love F1 but disagree with this. My reasoning is as such

Modern F1 or rather motorsport as a whole has a pitifully small talent pool that is limited to the offspring of the very wealthy. The sport is completely out of reach for 99.9% of the world's population. The average person can not even afford to do Go Karting once a week at their local track let alone travel round Europe every weekend attending international events at higher level. It's not like football where talent is all that matters and you can make it to the top having come from a slum/favella.

For example when you talk about Messi you can say with absolute confidence that this guy is an absolute freak generational talent because the talent pool he has come from is absolutely massive, everyone has kicked a football at one point in their life and found out if they have some kind of natural talent. In motorsport it's not like that, only the kids of uber wealthy can ever find out if they have natural talent and thus you are left with a tiny talent pool of people who probably aren't even that special. This is a reason you end up with big variations in driver skill in the worlds top series, it's why someone like Perez can get absolutely bodied by Verstappen. If F1 and motorsport as a whole was accessible to the general public and getting a seat was based purely on talent you would have multiple grids in multiple series with Verstappen and Hamilton level talent everywhere.

Now why am i going on about modern F1 ?

Well as bad as modern-day F1 and motorsport is in terms of it's talent pool... it is still absolutely light years ahead of where it was in the 1950s. F1 back then was barely a sport, it was a collection of wealthy hobbyists jumping in cars and trying to drive them as fast as possible. Thus the talent pool was even weaker and tinier than it is nowadays and by a huge margin. Back then you did not have proper junior levels or a cohesive feeder system... it was all very new.

On top of this the performance difference between cars was massive, far bigger than modern F1. Retirements happened all the time leaving wafer thin fields and it was considered normal for cars to finish 10+ laps down from the winner. It was the least competitive era of F1 and motorsport purely because the sport was so new.

One thing you can so for sure is that the drivers of this era were incredibly brave, balls of steel and Fangio was the best of them... they have my absolute respect. However in terms of pure driving talent its hard to find an argument that they were the best ever sportsperson in F1 let alone sports as a whole.

TLDR: No one in motorsport should be anywhere near the greatest sportsperson title due to how small the talent pool they come from is. It's like calling the worlds greatest water polo player a god tier talent despite absolutely no one playing water polo :p
 
longers said:
Hmm, love F1 but disagree with this. My reasoning is as such

Modern F1 or rather motorsport as a whole has a pitifully small talent pool that is limited to the offspring of the very wealthy. The sport is completely out of reach for 99.9% of the world's population. The average person can not even afford to do Go Karting once a week at their local track let alone travel round Europe every weekend attending international events at higher level. It's not like football where talent is all that matters and you can make it to the top having come from a slum/favella.

For example when you talk about Messi you can say with absolute confidence that this guy is an absolute freak generational talent because the talent pool he has come from is absolutely massive, everyone has kicked a football at one point in their life and found out if they have some kind of natural talent. In motorsport it's not like that, only the kids of uber wealthy can ever find out if they have natural talent and thus you are left with a tiny talent pool of people who probably aren't even that special. This is a reason you end up with big variations in driver skill in the worlds top series, it's why someone like Perez can get absolutely bodied by Verstappen. If F1 and motorsport as a whole was accessible to the general public and getting a seat was based purely on talent you would have multiple grids in multiple series with Verstappen and Hamilton level talent everywhere.

Now why am i going on about modern F1 ?

Well as bad as modern-day F1 and motorsport is in terms of it's talent pool... it is still absolutely light years ahead of where it was in the 1950s. F1 back then was barely a sport, it was a collection of wealthy hobbyists jumping in cars and trying to drive them as fast as possible. Thus the talent pool was even weaker and tinier than it is nowadays and by a huge margin. Back then you did not have proper junior levels or a cohesive feeder system... it was all very new.

On top of this the performance difference between cars was massive, far bigger than modern F1. Retirements happened all the time leaving wafer thin fields and it was considered normal for cars to finish 10+ laps down from the winner. It was the least competitive era of F1 and motorsport purely because the sport was so new.

One thing you can so for sure is that the drivers of this era were incredibly brave, balls of steel and Fangio was the best of them... they have my absolute respect. However in terms of pure driving talent its hard to find an argument that they were the best ever sportsperson in F1 let alone sports as a whole.

TLDR: No one in motorsport should be anywhere near the greatest sportsperson title due to how small the talent pool they come from is. It's like calling the worlds greatest water polo player a god tier talent despite absolutely no one playing water polo :p
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There was a time when it took actual skill and bravery to drive an F1 car. Due to the risk and danger involved, any F1 driver up until around the 70's and possible 80's deserves serious respect.

The modern F1 cars practically drive themselves though. I lost interest in F1 when both Murray Walker retired and Jordan left the grid.
 
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Cork Evertonian said:
There was a time when it took actual skill and bravery to drive an F1 car. Due to the risk and danger involved, any F1 driver up until around the 70's and possible 80's deserves serious respect.

The modern F1 cars practically drive themselves. You also have drivers who get drives for teams based on their wealth not talent! I just lost interest in F1 when both Murray Walker retired and Jordan left the grid.
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They have my serious respect, they were madmen.

Modern f1 cars do not practically drive themselves though, the average person wouldn't even be able to get enough heat into the tyres to do anything vaguely resembling a competent lap. It may look like they drive themselves but they definitely do not drive themselves when they are pushing on the limit. Old F1 was all about mechanical grip, modern F1 is all about aero... its two completely different concepts and both require completely different driving styles. I am under no doubt that todays drivers could deal with H pattern gearboxes etc... whether some of them would have the stomach for driving in that era is another thing altogether.

Different times and basically different sports imo. However, my point remains the talent pool Fangio came from was minuscule, there was barely anyone competing back then relative to modern times due to it all being so new. How special is someone when the competition is chock full of journeymen, hobbyists and rich dudes with no real businesss being in a car. The fact is he dominated in by far the least competitive era of F1.

Also your point about todays drivers getting drives based on wealth is confusing to me given wealth has always been a massive factor, especially in the early days of motorsport when it was very much for ultra-rich hobbyists. Every decade has had pay drivers, for example Taki Inoue makes Latifi look half decent...
 
Why do Cork play in red? Well before they used to play in blue shirts with a yellow C on the front.

_personalise_front_147.webp

The teams wore it a few years ago for a commemorative game. This was the Cork shirt up until 1919. On the week of the 1919 all Ireland hurling final against Dublin, British soldiers raided the county board offices and stole all the shirts and shorts!

So here we are the team has a major final like, but no playing attire for the big game! The long disbanded Father O'Leary Temperance Association team, gave the Cork team a lend of their kit though.

The playing kit in question consisted of red shirts and white shorts. Cork beat Dublin in the final, and the new playing kit was seen as bringing luck to the team, so they decided to keep the red and white playing kit!
 
John from Bootle said:
Before my time, but Stanley Matthews deserves a mention, surely? Incredible career, and a name that was recognised by kids long after he'd finished playing.

Sugar Ray Robinson is widely regarded to be the best pound for pound boxer ever.
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SRR is as close to the right answer as it's possible to get imho.

To be the unequivocal #1 GoaT in a sport as big as boxing - 100+ year heritage, biggest sport in the world for half the twentieth century, seems like it shouldn't be possible. All the different weights, time periods, nationalities - there should be loads of names and arguments but there isn't. He was the greatest there ever was or ever will be.
 

roydo said:
For me, being a "great" sportsperson goes beyond medals and ups and wins. It also means great sportsmanship.

So whoever conceded a far from obvious gimme in the Ryder Cup between, I think, Jack Nickolas and Tom Watson, to square the match and not lose the cup if he missed.

There will be plenty of others, obvs.

edit. Sommet like that anyrate.
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Speaking of Ryder Cups id include the Europe Team of 2012. Particularly José María Olazábal.
 
Black Belt Jones said:
SRR is as close to the right answer as it's possible to get imho.

To be the unequivocal #1 GoaT in a sport as big as boxing - 100+ year heritage, biggest sport in the world for half the twentieth century, seems like it shouldn't be possible. All the different weights, time periods, nationalities - there should be loads of names and arguments but there isn't. He was the greatest there ever was or ever will be.
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Good afternoon mate.
 
Black Belt Jones said:
SRR is as close to the right answer as it's possible to get imho.

To be the unequivocal #1 GoaT in a sport as big as boxing - 100+ year heritage, biggest sport in the world for half the twentieth century, seems like it shouldn't be possible. All the different weights, time periods, nationalities - there should be loads of names and arguments but there isn't. He was the greatest there ever was or ever will be.
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Rocky Graziano was a family friend (he lived in the same neighborhood as my grandmother). My uncle loved to talk about the classic fights with him and Rocky had only the best things to say about Sugar Ray.
 

W G Grace : Innovated much of the techniques of batsmenship on the terrible pictches of the nineteenth century. Just one of a myriad records was when he scored two triple hundreds and a piddling 176 in 8 days ; all together, in August 1876, he scored 839 runs. He turned cricket from a pastime into a sport.
 

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