The Privileged Elite

[magicjuan]

Socialist dictionary's definition of the privileged:

anyone who earns more than you

Think that a waitress is polarised because of a surgeon's wage?

 

[monty]

Talking out your backside I'm afraid. I went to a comprehensive in Wigan, got my first job at a major German bank having been interviewed by a Kiwi and an Essex bird.

And FWIW, I've never met anyone from Eton.

You just typed out of your backside..................you haven't met anyone from Eton for one of two reasons............firstly you've never got high enough or secondly your from Wigan. I also would remind you about attitudes in this country are the subject of this topic hence you comments are irrelevant as you admit your job was with a major German bank.

 

[monty]

I haven't worked with any mate, but my nieces are going to school on the Isle of Wight, which has well known problems with schooling. Crap schools aside though, there's nothing that's really stopping them from doing well in life. If you believe you're destined to fail then that's what'll happen.

Bruce I could not agree more trouble is whole generations get written off. Referring back to the article, Etonians don't have to believe in anything else other than what is laid for them. My mates wife taught at Roughwood, any kid with a brain, she claimed, got it knocked out of them. The only fault in this life for the Roughwood kid is being born via underprivileged sperm

 

[bring back the catt]

Aye, for sure, and kids in wealthy families have it easier in that sense, in that their environment is likely to be full of 'successful people', so role models are not hard to come by, and there is, as you say, a sense of destiny about it. And that peer group then comes in handy for giving the child a legup, whether that's getting an internship or helping onto the property ladder.

That isn't reserved to Eton alumni though. A friend of ours is a community nurse, and by virtue of the property market in London going as it has, she'll be selling up her 3-bed house (bought for 75k) and buying a flat for her each of her two kids, so they'll be largely mortgage free. You could argue that it's unfair and all that, but parents helping their kids is kind of what happens isn't it?

Nepotism has always been prevalent, it only really becomes distasteful when somebody else benefits from it more than you.
I was from a council estate and went to a secondary modern school, but I found that background to be of vast importance to me.
Not in the sense that 'I'm from a poor region and proud of it' way. More in a 'I'm from a poor region and not ashamed of it' way.
I was also bought up by very hard working and amazing parents who guided me through my years, and had numerous gifted honest friends.

I left school before I was sixteen without any qualifications and began work at a partnership of accounts.I also attended college and did correspondence courses as I found I benefited more from practical as well as theoretical teachings. I gained all I needed to qualify for university, and I was fortunate in the fact I only needed two hours sleep each day.
Several other qualifications attained, which only served to broaden my outlook.

The only instances I can recall of being denied a position I applied for, was when I attempted to, in the first instance, join the Armed forces, and in the second, to enter the Foreign Office. Then, if you weren't Fobes Forbisher Montague-stJohn Pyke, or the like, you were denied.

That was my spur to succeed at something different. Which I did.
Ye, I was lucky. But as the saying goes, the harder I worked, the luckier I became.

Iv'e never lost my social background or beliefs, which has very often been to my detriment. As I said, that was my spur, not my crutch.
I was also able to give my children many benefits to help them through the difficult stages of their adult lives, none of which i feel ashamed about.
But the biggest gift of all was the one I received from my parents. That was to never give up on anybody, or anything, and most of all never give up on yourself. Nor indeed in the principals, or practices, and certainly not the people or pastimes you believe in.

 

[Bigmaclad]

Let's all just be friends

 

[peteblue]

Bruce I could not agree more trouble is whole generations get written off. Referring back to the article, Etonians don't have to believe in anything else other than what is laid for them. My mates wife taught at Roughwood, any kid with a brain, she claimed, got it knocked out of them. The only fault in this life for the Roughwood kid is being born via underprivileged sperm

Before the politicians removed opportunity for underprivileged kids by doing away with the 11 plus exams, Liverpool had some really excellent Grammar Schools and College's who changed the course of life for many of those kids.....

 

[catcherintherye]

Aye, for sure, and kids in wealthy families have it easier in that sense, in that their environment is likely to be full of 'successful people', so role models are not hard to come by, and there is, as you say, a sense of destiny about it. And that peer group then comes in handy for giving the child a legup, whether that's getting an internship or helping onto the property ladder.

That isn't reserved to Eton alumni though. A friend of ours is a community nurse, and by virtue of the property market in London going as it has, she'll be selling up her 3-bed house (bought for 75k) and buying a flat for her each of her two kids, so they'll be largely mortgage free. You could argue that it's unfair and all that, but parents helping their kids is kind of what happens isn't it?

Yes definitely and that's how I tried to balance the post, that you could view it either way and it could certainly be seen as just trying to help out your friends and family. I am not sure people are aware of the damage it does and are certainly not acting in that way. I take my partners son, the person offering him basically an unconditional way into qualifying as a lawyer (irrespective of qualification grading or institution) are not motivated by trying to restrict the opportunity of others. Likewise the nurse in question isn't trying to drive up houses for others.

I think the problems occur though when people either; a) exist it doesn't happen or isn't important. Or b) try to intellectualise it. Start talking about how people from a certain background are inherently better either biologically or culturally. That traits displayed by this socio-economic group are better than for the rest of us. I hear a lot of "boys from this school are trained to be resilient" etc. If people could hold their hands up and say, "you know what I'm helping out a friend or loved one" that would be far more honest.

I do think we need to look at ways to counter that inherent bias though. That's difficult to do with buying a house as ultimately that will be dictated by who can pay the most. However most of these jobs/university places/traineeships people often make judgements when things are very equal. It is hard for us to measure who's "better" in the way we can measure who has cash to buy a house.

Take for example, all evidence shows that pupils from comprehensives do better than those from grammar school, who do better than those from independent schools when at university. Yet evidence also shows for Oxbridge and Redbrick institutions that the reverse trend is true when it comes to letting in pupils with equivalent grades. If you had 3 lads, one from Harrow, one from Tonbridge Wells Grammar School and one from a Salford Comp with the same grades it shows the lad from Salford Grammar would excel the most, yet he is the one who's likely to miss out.

For me not only is that unfair but it's also detrimental to building a better society for all of us. I do think it's the job of the government, where possible to try to challenge these practices for the good of society as a whole. It's in our interests to have the most capable people doing corresponding jobs. This does not mean publically shaming people, but as we said above understanding people are acting upon human impulse but in the end that's flawed.

Currently though we have a government with a Laisez fair approach to this. Not taking action is essentially saying it can continue. The ISA (independent School association) even now with no action on this feel they are being undermined, even when they are let in with worse grades/performance than poorer students, so would react badly to any suggestions at trying to develop a more even playing field and it's unlikely government will want to challenge them.

 

[Seanjd]

I've no doubt that the old school tie plays a part in certain professions. Lets take law as an example of a well paid profession. Ok, so most High Court judges fit that old school tie image, but there are approximately 118,000 practicing lawyers in the UK so I find it hard to believe that the kid from Roughwood Comp couldn't have become one of their number if they wanted to.

It all depends though, doesn't it? And it comes back to the fact that if you grow up in a deprived area or in a low income family, you're less likely to. It isn't good enough to just say. 'If they work hard enough and really want it, they will.'

You have no choice which family you're born into, where you grow up and how much wealth you have. It's luck of the draw.
If you're born into a family with wealth in a good area, you have a better chance of succeeding than if you were born into deprivation. That's it.

Private schools are just a way of maximising the chances of those with money, which those born into deprivation, again, do not have the chance of accessing.

So I don't think it's good enough to have the opinion that if someone from a deprived background works hard enough they will do it. That doesn't mean to say they shouldn't, but at least to recognise that there are a multitude of barriers for that person to overcome before they even start thinking about how to succeed. Barriers which the privately educated, on the whole, know nothing about.

 

[catcherintherye]

Before the politicians removed opportunity for underprivileged kids by doing away with the 11 plus exams, Liverpool had some really excellent Grammar Schools and College's who changed the course of life for many of those kids.....

Including my parents. This wasn't uniform though. I am from part of the country where grammar schools still exist and it is also part of the country that has the worst outcomes for disparity between poor and rich children.

Like many things while grammar schools appear great on paper the reality of them is they widen social stratification. The answer is to have well funded schools which all children are able to go too. Also adopting the principles of Vygotsky would help, and philosophically most would acknowledge mixed ability teaching is hugely beneficial, which of course runs contrary to the Grammar school model.

 

[catcherintherye]

Socialist dictionary's definition of the privileged:

anyone who earns more than you

I don't think that's the case at all. Or at least it's not for me. I know lots of people who earn more than me who I wouldn't say are privileged. Likewise I know people would look at my salary and feel I'm privileged. It is a relative term isn't it?

What socialism is about for me in this context is being able to analyse ways in which unequal access to resource damages wider society and trying to develop solutions to this that can be better.

I don't believe born into wealth are inherently more able to do jobs than my children. Nor would I assume that my children would be able to do things better than those from a poorer background. It is about trying to create a fair level playing where everybody has a reasonable chance. We're unlikely to get full equality as that's a utopia but I think we can do a bit better than what we have now?

 

[The Cowboy]

You just typed out of your backside..................you haven't met anyone from Eton for one of two reasons............firstly you've never got high enough or secondly your from Wigan. I also would remind you about attitudes in this country are the subject of this topic hence you comments are irrelevant as you admit your job was with a major German bank.

Newsflash: German banks have offices in London.

 

[monty]

Newsflash: German banks have offices in London.

That would be relevant if you had said Etonians run the German bank I work for..........................

 

[Seanjd]

Talking out your backside I'm afraid. I went to a comprehensive in Wigan, got my first job at a major German bank having been interviewed by a Kiwi and an Essex bird.

And FWIW, I've never met anyone from Eton.

You missed his point. His scenario had the interviewer as an Eton school boy.

 

[The Cowboy]

You missed his point. His scenario had the interviewer as an Eton school boy.

And my point is that the interviewers rarely are Eton schoolboys.

 

[The Cowboy]

That would be relevant if you had said Etonians run the German bank I work for..........................

Genuinely have no idea what you're talking about now.