The Wall - stick or twist?

[BlueToff]

Having 4 CB's in there means we have 0 attacking threat from our FB positions. There was a spot yesterday Godfrey had the ball, if he had any attacking threat he could have walked right in to the box because Leicester players went to the middle and to the left and opened a massive hole. Godfrey stopped and passed it back to Digne instead of trying to get forward.

They're good against an attacking side but we need SOME threat going forward. DCL can't make something out of nothing, he needs support. Richarlison used ot be able to but he's cack this season. Only one who can do that is James. Getting a goal then sitting back is a really poor strategy.

It's not the sitting back as such. We like to defend on the edge of our own box because that's best for the defenders we have - Mina and Keane don't have to worry about runs in behind.

The issue is a lack of quality keeping hold of the ball. That's the same even with Allan and Doucoure in the team btw. We just don't keep the ball well, because we have two players capable of doing it (Iwobi and James) and at a push, Gomes.

I'm not on about hold up play - that's on Richarlison (who has been poor but is so deep so much at the moment) and Dom. I'm on about 'transitioning' the ball from one third to the other, to use modern terminology.

Look how much Barkley and Grealish do it for Villa. Sanson is a player in a similar mould.

Look how well Tielemans does it for Leicester.

This desire for a 'number 6' seems strange to me because frankly what we need in our midfield is that type of player, more of an 8, and that's whether we're playing deep or looking to be on the front foot. We got caught out a lot at the start of the season by simply playing a slack pass with our players committed upfield, and as we saw last night, we also didn't have anybody to hold the ball in midfield when we needed to. It's why Carlo should have seen that and brought Iwobi on earlier, probably for Richarlison, to at least give us an out ball.

 

[Vaughan]

Horses for courses mainly

I think an ideal blend between defence and attack at the moment would be

Digne Keane Mina Godfrey

Allows Digne to overlap at left back where he is most dangerous

Allows Godfrey to cover James if he's played out to the right, though it would be great to have someone to overlap him and really cause problems

Without a midfield it's moot. If Alllan and Doucoure can be there to cover and actuLLY hold onto the ball then we can afford to be more expansive

I also think with good coaching Godfrey could be a Lescott like force up the flank. He's shown serious ability to go past players in a flash with his acceleration despite evidently not much technical ability with dribbling. If he could practice dribbling more he could be a real weapon

I wish we had more Godfreys

 

[Vaughan]

It's not the sitting back as such. We like to defend on the edge of our own box because that's best for the defenders we have - Mina and Keane don't have to worry about runs in behind.

The issue is a lack of quality keeping hold of the ball. That's the same even with Allan and Doucoure in the team btw. We just don't keep the ball well, because we have two players capable of doing it (Iwobi and James) and at a push, Gomes.

I'm not on about hold up play - that's on Richarlison (who has been poor but is so deep so much at the moment) and Dom. I'm on about 'transitioning' the ball from one third to the other, to use modern terminology.

Look how much Barkley and Grealish do it for Villa. Sanson is a player in a similar mould.

Look how well Tielemans does it for Leicester.

This desire for a 'number 6' seems strange to me because frankly what we need in our midfield is that type of player, more of an 8, and that's whether we're playing deep or looking to be on the front foot. We got caught out a lot at the start of the season by simply playing a slack pass with our players committed upfield, and as we saw last night, we also didn't have anybody to hold the ball in midfield when we needed to. It's why Carlo should have seen that and brought Iwobi on earlier, probably for Richarlison, to at least give us an out ball.

Day I say it would we look a lot more capable and balanced with Barkley playing on the left side of a 3 with Allan and Doucoure?

 

[Vaughan]

agree on the back 3 working on paper but not necessarily in reality, espeically if it involves Mina and keane

As brilliant as they've been that's what they're good at, backs against the wall defending, edge of the box defending. it's not too dissimilar to Morgan and Huth at Leicester, they were excellent that year because they camped on the edge of their own area and batted crosses away. Once leicester wanted to play more progressively and expansively they had to find new centre halves

If we were to play a 3 now I think our best bet would be (from right to left)

Holgate Keane Godfrey

 

[Tree13]

Horses for courses mainly

I think an ideal blend between defence and attack at the moment would be

Digne Keane Mina Godfrey

Allows Digne to overlap at left back where he is most dangerous

Allows Godfrey to cover James if he's played out to the right, though it would be great to have someone to overlap him and really cause problems

Without a midfield it's moot. If Alllan and Doucoure can be there to cover and actuLLY hold onto the ball then we can afford to be more expansive

I also think with good coaching Godfrey could be a Lescott like force up the flank. He's shown serious ability to go past players in a flash with his acceleration despite evidently not much technical ability with dribbling. If he could practice dribbling more he could be a real weapon

I wish we had more Godfreys

This.

Until Allan and Doucoure are BOTH back in the starting 11, we can't risk sacrificing any defensive solidity.

I'd be tempted to try Godfrey out as the RB in a back four though, now that Digne is available again. Big Ben is right footed, so IF he's going to provide any attacking option from a fullback position it's surely more likely to be viable on the right?

 

[Lanolin]

Yep, agreed. Also, as a right footed player on the left, Richarlison NEEDS somebody going on his outside to be effective. He's too easy to handle without support on his outside because you know he'll always want to come inside. His loss of form isn't some mad coincidence, he's never going to be effective in that set up.

 

[BlueToff]

Day I say it would we look a lot more capable and balanced with Barkley playing on the left side of a 3 with Allan and Doucoure?

Barkley is pretty much exactly the type of player we'd need. But he isn't at the club anymore so it's pretty irelevant.

Gomes did it well at the start of the season but went badly off the boil after the derby and we need someone who is more consistent and more of a goal threat.

 

[BlueToff]

Yep, agreed. Also, as a right footed player on the left, Richarlison NEEDS somebody going on his outside to be effective. He's too easy to handle without support on his outside because you know he'll always want to come inside. His loss of form isn't some mad coincidence, he's never going to be effective in that set up.

He's a forward, and playing as a forward at the start of the season in an effective 4-3-3, he was excellent.

Our failure to sign an adequate alternative for any of the front three positions combined with Richarlison's red card left us exposed and played a part in our poor run, which then meant we had to find a way to be more defensively solid as we were playing catch up.

Richarlison is at his best without the ball for as long as possible, imo. You don't really want him driving from our own half, unless it's with space to run into like the goal vs Palace last year. You want him making the most of his great off-the-ball movement and getting into the area onto crosses, either to create a chance or have a pop himself.

Iwobi, on the other hand, you do want getting the ball deeper and driving with it because when he gets his head down and runs, he's actually a decent player.

I honestly wouldn't be adverse at all to seeing him in a midfield three (Iwobi this is) against certain teams, but it probably needs Allan to be back in to give us some more assurity. He's the closest thing we've got to a ball-carrying midfielder atm.

 

[Drumblue]

Horses for courses mainly

I think an ideal blend between defence and attack at the moment would be

Digne Keane Mina Godfrey

Allows Digne to overlap at left back where he is most dangerous

Allows Godfrey to cover James if he's played out to the right, though it would be great to have someone to overlap him and really cause problems

Without a midfield it's moot. If Alllan and Doucoure can be there to cover and actuLLY hold onto the ball then we can afford to be more expansive

I also think with good coaching Godfrey could be a Lescott like force up the flank. He's shown serious ability to go past players in a flash with his acceleration despite evidently not much technical ability with dribbling. If he could practice dribbling more he could be a real weapon

I wish we had more Godfreys

RB new: Keane: Godfrey: Digne

 

[TheBigIguana]

And he wants to get forward. He's limited atm on the left as he's very right footed so constantly has to turn back. Can see him overlapping Iwobi/James for fun on the right, if not to take a pass it would open up space for the RW (like Neville done constantly for Beckham).. and his pace tracking back is unreal.

I'd be surprised if he was a useful attacking threat. He overlapped Iwobi last night late on and it was not a particularly well done run. I'd be shocked if he can cross. But we can set up a system that works in attack without a RB overlapping well so long as Digne is doing so on the left.

 

[jazzy]

The wall of Godfrey, Keane, Mina and Holgate is brilliant isn’t it? Teams literally can’t get past them.

Attacking wise we’re less dynamic though, and with Digne and Coleman both back Carlo has a decision to make.

What’s the general view on this?

Until we gave a proper defensive midfielder able to smell and deal with danger the wall should remain in place.......but it is limiting on our ability to play progressive football.

 

[Hackbread]

I think yesterday we would have looked much better attacking wise if we had Doucoure on linking the attack and the defence, missed his presence big time.

We were crying out for Iwobi to be on as well as he has done a great job his last few appearances of bringing the ball out of our defence and starting the attack

The wall works better with the right personnel in front of it, when Allans back and with Doucoure starting in front of it I think it will look a lot more attacking than it did today.

 

[catcherintherye]

3 goals conceded in 6 games for the 1st back four. Until we start conceding a lot, it stays for me.

 

[Zatara]

....Ancelotti has done very well finding a formula that works whilst missing creative players, but to get to the next level we have to be able to mix it creatively with the better teams.

Digne is a fantastic creative source and carries real threat from LB. That ammunition needs to be exploited, not nullified by playing him LM. Let him bomb on, but have legs in CM and real pace & power in Central defence that keeps the door shut at the back.

The great mid-80s team is still a decent blueprint. Two full backs with Rolls Royce engines who created so much in the top third. Two CMs who rarely cross the half-way line and a CB (Ratcliffe) with rapid pace. The Reds won the league with a similar profile in those positions.

We are grinding out great results with this system, but a 1-0 win at Sheffield United could easily be a 1-0 defeat on another day. West Ham were just as well organised and turned us over.

Lets say we sign a RB in summer whose an attacking minded positive player.

Then we have Digne LB + Godfrey at CB.

What is the actual profile of the other CB you would want in there?

Also you mention 2CMs in the 80s team. Would you still go with that -- 442 or something else?

In short, what would you like to see and which players that we have do you think would slot into your template for a successful team?

With the current options further forward we 'need' the full backs to attack because we don't have anywhere near enough creative threat from the forward players to allow the full backs not to contribute at all. If we get more creativity in the side we may manage without, but at the moment it's clearly an issue. It's also worth pointing out that it's not just the back 4 who have been responsible for us being solid. The whole set up recently has been defensive, with the midfield sitting right in front of the centre halves and an extra full back on the wing. The balance of the team needs to be right; in some games this set up has been perfect, in others it hasn't. In our last 7 home games against top flight opposition we've won 2 drawn 1 and lost 4, only scoring 4 goals. If that continues we'll slide right down the league. We need to find a way to offer more threat going forward, and if there are no players coming in in this window, the only way I can see to do that is to mix things up with the defence occasionally.

Do you not think that with Allan and Doucoure there to act as a 'shield' in front of the defence and also go box to box we would be better in transtioning the ball forwards quicker and getting bodies forward?

id say the main issue for me is that if we sit deep (to benefit Mina/Keane) then when the full backs bomb on we need players to cover their positions.

If were going to do that then Doucoure and/or Allan will need to sit and play as anchor which takes away from their box to box games.

If we push higher up the pitch then we'd have no option but to play Godfrey and Holgate CB (imo) because they have the pace to get back and cover oppositions quick forwards.

Well we need to start creating more than 1 decent chance per game Zat.

Full-backs are a big part of that. Need to stretch teams. It also creates space for Iwobi and Richarlison and James etc, behind Dom.

We'll get the balance right, i'm sure, but can't play 4 CBs in every game. We should have, and did, play it last night and that's fine, but has to be horses for courses.

This is why for me, if we had that 6 player who can ping the ball around while also act as an anchor then we can transition the ball far quicker on the counter.

The key, i think in playing the back 4 as it is would be whether we can counter quickly or how we can be more effective in an attack sense.

I dont think the issue is the defence as it is per se, its more the ability to move the ball forwards and effectively.

At the moment only Digne and James are our creative players and we lack someone centrally to move the ball from defence to midfield and wide.

 

[catcherintherye]

....Ancelotti has done very well finding a formula that works whilst missing creative players, but to get to the next level we have to be able to mix it creatively with the better teams.

Digne is a fantastic creative source and carries real threat from LB. That ammunition needs to be exploited, not nullified by playing him LM. Let him bomb on, but have legs in CM and real pace & power in Central defence that keeps the door shut at the back.

The great mid-80s team is still a decent blueprint. Two full backs with Rolls Royce engines who created so much in the top third. Two CMs who rarely cross the half-way line and a CB (Ratcliffe) with rapid pace. The Reds won the league with a similar profile in those positions.

We are grinding out great results with this system, but a 1-0 win at Sheffield United could easily be a 1-0 defeat on another day. West Ham were just as well organised and turned us over.

Ill pose the question here, but would you have swapped Van den Hauwe for Digne in the 1985 side?

I'm not saying Godfrey is as good as Pat, but it's the same sort of question.

To me we should break the defence up if/when it starts conceding goals. All the while it's 0-1 goals conceded it should stay. We can do what we like ahead of it, in terms of getting more creative players in, but I wouldn't sacrifice our defensive stability at this point.