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The Zodiac Killer

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trueblue84 said:
The police were a complete shambles. Their latest statement about still trying to get justice for the victims says it all. They've got blood on their hands through their sheer incompetence, mixed in with some traditional American police tactics (try and blame a black man).

I do think Allen was involved. The amateur code cyphering (hence the mistakes) and his zodiac watch were big too much of a coincidence for me. I do think there was a helper, or maybe main culprit, which is why they couldn't pin it on one person.
Click to expand...
He is the most likely suspect, but in reality the evidence against him is/was merely circumstantial. Unless they crack the cipher, we'll never know.
 
PhilM said:
He is the most likely suspect, but in reality the evidence against him is/was merely circumstantial. Unless they crack the cipher, we'll never know.
Click to expand...
It's the weight of circumstantial evidence that does it for me though. So many things add up to it being him.

Taken from one of the thousands of sites about the zodiac killer:

All evidence against Allen is circumstantial, though the large quantity of circumstantial evidence is the primary reason that Allen became the primary suspect in the Zodiac case.

Direct Evidence:


  • In 1991, surviving victim Mike Mageau picked Allen out of a police lineup.
  • Surviving victim Bryan Hartnell identified his voice and physical appearance as being similar to the Zodiac.
Circumstantial Evidence:


  • Allen communicated to his friend Don Cheney (through the premise of writing a novel) the following ideas:
    • He would like to kill couples randomly.
    • He would taunt the police with letters detailing his crimes.
    • He would sign the letters with the cross-circle symbol from his watch.
    • He wanted to one day call himself "Zodiac." He said this to his friend
    • He would wear make-up to change his appearance.
    • He would attach a flashlight to the barrel of his gun in order to shoot at night.
    • He would fool women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming they had problems with their tires, then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive.[1]
  • Allen was born on December 18, around the same time the Zodiac told attorney Melvin Belli's housekeeper over the phone that it was his birthday and he needed to kill someone.
  • Allen lived in Vallejo near the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Herman Road murders.
  • Allen was allegedly in Riverside on the weekend when Cheri Jo Bates was murdered. He later claimed to be in Pomona when he heard of Bates' murder.
  • Allen took his only sick day of the year on Nov.1, 1966 (Bates was murdered on Oct. 30, 1966).
  • The Vallejo Police Department seized a Royal typewriter with Elite type from Allen's home, which is the brand of typewriter used to write the Bates' letters.
    • Note: To date, the typewriter has not been compared to the Bates letters.
  • Received a Zodiac watch from his mother for Christmas in 1967, according to his brother. Allen estimated receiving the watch in 1969.
  • Allen communicated to his friend Philip that he was fascinated with the idea of killing people. He believed that people were more challenging to kill than animals since they were more intelligent. Similar sentiments were communicated during the three-part cipher mailed to newspapers. Allen also mentioned to the police that his favourite book was The Most Dangerous Game, a book about killing humans and possibly alluded to in a Zodiac correspondence.
  • Mageau described a brown Corvair at the Blue Rock Springs scene. Allen's friend, Philip, owned a brown Corvair that Allen was allowed to use.
  • Allen told friend Don Cheney that he was fond of a waitress at the International House of Pancakes in Vallejo, the place where Darlene Ferrin worked as a waitress.
  • An unidentified man named "Lee" was known to associate with Ferrin, and Allen frequently went by his middle name.
  • Told police he was going up to Berryessa on the day of the Hartnell/Shepard attack, but decided to go up the coast instead.
  • Allen admitted to possessing bloody knives on the day of the Berryessa attack, claiming that he used them to kill chickens.
  • Cheney mentioned to Ron Allen that Arthur had two .22 caliber weapons.
  • Zodiac is frequently theorized as having military ties, and Allen was at one time a sail maker in the navy.
  • Allen wore size 10.5 shoes, similar to those left at the crime scene.
  • In 1991, a nemesis of Allen's named Ralph Spinelli told police that Allen admitted to being the Zodiac and that he would prove it by going to San Francisco and "killing a cabbie."
  • In 1991, the search warrant for Allen's house found bomb diagrams and the same ingredients for bombs that were mentioned in a previous Zodiac letter.
  • Karen Allen, his sister-in-law, stated that Allen would use the shortened "trigger mech" in place of "trigger mechanism," as well as spelling Christmas with two S's. Both idiosyncrasies appear in the Zodiac letter to Melvin Belli.
  • Karen also stated that he was taught to write right-handed as a child, even though he was left-handed.
  • Allen claimed to have consulted with Melvin Belli, an attorney mentioned by name in the Zodiac letters.
 
trueblue84 said:
Can't see a thread on it and since the news came out today about one of the cyphers being cracked, thought it'd be good to get one going.

www.bbc.co.uk

Zodiac Killer: Code-breakers solve San Francisco killer's cipher

A three-strong amateur team decodes one of several messages attributed to a US serial killer.
www.bbc.co.uk

Do you think we'll ever find out for sure who did it?

My money is on Arthur Leigh Allen. Especially since the latest code break shows that the person doing the cypher made mistakes, which is why there were weird typos.

But, I think ha also had an accomplice. That's why there are so many discrepancies in the case (like with the police sketches looking nothing like him) and why there's been no evidence found (the accomplice has it or has destroyed it).
Click to expand...
I’ve followed this for a long time.

Dave Oranchak has been trying to crack this for the best part of the decade and has done an excellent job.

The only downside is that it contains no further clues as to his identity. It does all but confirm that he wasn’t the person who called in to Melvin Belli though.

I don’t think there was a ‘team Zodiac’ I think it was one guy.
 

trueblue84 said:
It's the weight of circumstantial evidence that does it for me though. So many things add up to it being him.

Taken from one of the thousands of sites about the zodiac killer:

All evidence against Allen is circumstantial, though the large quantity of circumstantial evidence is the primary reason that Allen became the primary suspect in the Zodiac case.

Direct Evidence:


  • In 1991, surviving victim Mike Mageau picked Allen out of a police lineup.
  • Surviving victim Bryan Hartnell identified his voice and physical appearance as being similar to the Zodiac.
Circumstantial Evidence:


  • Allen communicated to his friend Don Cheney (through the premise of writing a novel) the following ideas:
    • He would like to kill couples randomly.
    • He would taunt the police with letters detailing his crimes.
    • He would sign the letters with the cross-circle symbol from his watch.
    • He wanted to one day call himself "Zodiac." He said this to his friend
    • He would wear make-up to change his appearance.
    • He would attach a flashlight to the barrel of his gun in order to shoot at night.
    • He would fool women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming they had problems with their tires, then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive.[1]
  • Allen was born on December 18, around the same time the Zodiac told attorney Melvin Belli's housekeeper over the phone that it was his birthday and he needed to kill someone.
  • Allen lived in Vallejo near the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Herman Road murders.
  • Allen was allegedly in Riverside on the weekend when Cheri Jo Bates was murdered. He later claimed to be in Pomona when he heard of Bates' murder.
  • Allen took his only sick day of the year on Nov.1, 1966 (Bates was murdered on Oct. 30, 1966).
  • The Vallejo Police Department seized a Royal typewriter with Elite type from Allen's home, which is the brand of typewriter used to write the Bates' letters.
    • Note: To date, the typewriter has not been compared to the Bates letters.
  • Received a Zodiac watch from his mother for Christmas in 1967, according to his brother. Allen estimated receiving the watch in 1969.
  • Allen communicated to his friend Philip that he was fascinated with the idea of killing people. He believed that people were more challenging to kill than animals since they were more intelligent. Similar sentiments were communicated during the three-part cipher mailed to newspapers. Allen also mentioned to the police that his favourite book was The Most Dangerous Game, a book about killing humans and possibly alluded to in a Zodiac correspondence.
  • Mageau described a brown Corvair at the Blue Rock Springs scene. Allen's friend, Philip, owned a brown Corvair that Allen was allowed to use.
  • Allen told friend Don Cheney that he was fond of a waitress at the International House of Pancakes in Vallejo, the place where Darlene Ferrin worked as a waitress.
  • An unidentified man named "Lee" was known to associate with Ferrin, and Allen frequently went by his middle name.
  • Told police he was going up to Berryessa on the day of the Hartnell/Shepard attack, but decided to go up the coast instead.
  • Allen admitted to possessing bloody knives on the day of the Berryessa attack, claiming that he used them to kill chickens.
  • Cheney mentioned to Ron Allen that Arthur had two .22 caliber weapons.
  • Zodiac is frequently theorized as having military ties, and Allen was at one time a sail maker in the navy.
  • Allen wore size 10.5 shoes, similar to those left at the crime scene.
  • In 1991, a nemesis of Allen's named Ralph Spinelli told police that Allen admitted to being the Zodiac and that he would prove it by going to San Francisco and "killing a cabbie."
  • In 1991, the search warrant for Allen's house found bomb diagrams and the same ingredients for bombs that were mentioned in a previous Zodiac letter.
  • Karen Allen, his sister-in-law, stated that Allen would use the shortened "trigger mech" in place of "trigger mechanism," as well as spelling Christmas with two S's. Both idiosyncrasies appear in the Zodiac letter to Melvin Belli.
  • Karen also stated that he was taught to write right-handed as a child, even though he was left-handed.
  • Allen claimed to have consulted with Melvin Belli, an attorney mentioned by name in the Zodiac letters.
Click to expand...
The problem is, it's entirely circumstantial. You can make things fit for any POI in this way (except for Tom Voight's pet, Richard Gaikowski imo, he's a non-starter). Ross Sullivan, Lawrance Kane, Ted Manalli, the list goes on.

I personally do not think it's ALA, he was a known paedophile who Don Cheney pointed the finger at because he got frisky with his daughter and wanted to make him pay.

I personally think it will be someone who isn't on the radar, just like JJD in the EARONS case. I do think he'll be ex-military though. There is actually a case for it being someone Paul Stine knew, because the FBI files state they have proof he travelled in the front seat of the cab, something which Stine never did unless he knew someone personally. Of course this isn't to say Stine had any part of it, but perhaps he discovered something that put him in danger?
 

Groucho said:
The problem is, it's entirely circumstantial. You can make things fit for any POI in this way (except for Tom Voight's pet, Richard Gaikowski imo, he's a non-starter). Ross Sullivan, Lawrance Kane, Ted Manalli, the list goes on.

I personally do not think it's ALA, he was a known paedophile who Don Cheney pointed the finger at because he got frisky with his daughter and wanted to make him pay.

I personally think it will be someone who isn't on the radar, just like JJD in the EARONS case. I do think he'll be ex-military though. There is actually a case for it being someone Paul Stine knew, because the FBI files state they have proof he travelled in the front seat of the cab, something which Stine never did unless he knew someone personally. Of course this isn't to say Stine had any part of it, but perhaps he discovered something that put him in danger?
Click to expand...
I'm still convinced Arthur Lee Allen was involved, based on the stuff I've read from Robert graysmith.

The main one is that a psychologist had told him that serial killers usually contact the police to say things like "i want to help"... He found out later that only 1 letter was ever received by police and it was written by Allen from prison.

Then there's the phone calls he received which only stopped after Allen died.

I do think he had help, though. Whether it was help hiding evidence or throwing the police off.
 
trueblue84 said:
It's the weight of circumstantial evidence that does it for me though. So many things add up to it being him.

Taken from one of the thousands of sites about the zodiac killer:

All evidence against Allen is circumstantial, though the large quantity of circumstantial evidence is the primary reason that Allen became the primary suspect in the Zodiac case.

Direct Evidence:


  • In 1991, surviving victim Mike Mageau picked Allen out of a police lineup.
  • Surviving victim Bryan Hartnell identified his voice and physical appearance as being similar to the Zodiac.
Circumstantial Evidence:


  • Allen communicated to his friend Don Cheney (through the premise of writing a novel) the following ideas:
    • He would like to kill couples randomly.
    • He would taunt the police with letters detailing his crimes.
    • He would sign the letters with the cross-circle symbol from his watch.
    • He wanted to one day call himself "Zodiac." He said this to his friend
    • He would wear make-up to change his appearance.
    • He would attach a flashlight to the barrel of his gun in order to shoot at night.
    • He would fool women into stopping their cars in rural areas by claiming they had problems with their tires, then loosen their lug nuts and eventually take them captive.[1]
  • Allen was born on December 18, around the same time the Zodiac told attorney Melvin Belli's housekeeper over the phone that it was his birthday and he needed to kill someone.
  • Allen lived in Vallejo near the Blue Rock Springs and Lake Herman Road murders.
  • Allen was allegedly in Riverside on the weekend when Cheri Jo Bates was murdered. He later claimed to be in Pomona when he heard of Bates' murder.
  • Allen took his only sick day of the year on Nov.1, 1966 (Bates was murdered on Oct. 30, 1966).
  • The Vallejo Police Department seized a Royal typewriter with Elite type from Allen's home, which is the brand of typewriter used to write the Bates' letters.
    • Note: To date, the typewriter has not been compared to the Bates letters.
  • Received a Zodiac watch from his mother for Christmas in 1967, according to his brother. Allen estimated receiving the watch in 1969.
  • Allen communicated to his friend Philip that he was fascinated with the idea of killing people. He believed that people were more challenging to kill than animals since they were more intelligent. Similar sentiments were communicated during the three-part cipher mailed to newspapers. Allen also mentioned to the police that his favourite book was The Most Dangerous Game, a book about killing humans and possibly alluded to in a Zodiac correspondence.
  • Mageau described a brown Corvair at the Blue Rock Springs scene. Allen's friend, Philip, owned a brown Corvair that Allen was allowed to use.
  • Allen told friend Don Cheney that he was fond of a waitress at the International House of Pancakes in Vallejo, the place where Darlene Ferrin worked as a waitress.
  • An unidentified man named "Lee" was known to associate with Ferrin, and Allen frequently went by his middle name.
  • Told police he was going up to Berryessa on the day of the Hartnell/Shepard attack, but decided to go up the coast instead.
  • Allen admitted to possessing bloody knives on the day of the Berryessa attack, claiming that he used them to kill chickens.
  • Cheney mentioned to Ron Allen that Arthur had two .22 caliber weapons.
  • Zodiac is frequently theorized as having military ties, and Allen was at one time a sail maker in the navy.
  • Allen wore size 10.5 shoes, similar to those left at the crime scene.
  • In 1991, a nemesis of Allen's named Ralph Spinelli told police that Allen admitted to being the Zodiac and that he would prove it by going to San Francisco and "killing a cabbie."
  • In 1991, the search warrant for Allen's house found bomb diagrams and the same ingredients for bombs that were mentioned in a previous Zodiac letter.
  • Karen Allen, his sister-in-law, stated that Allen would use the shortened "trigger mech" in place of "trigger mechanism," as well as spelling Christmas with two S's. Both idiosyncrasies appear in the Zodiac letter to Melvin Belli.
  • Karen also stated that he was taught to write right-handed as a child, even though he was left-handed.
  • Allen claimed to have consulted with Melvin Belli, an attorney mentioned by name in the Zodiac letters.
Click to expand...

Hasn't he been ruled out via DNA from the letters anyway?

Assuming the killer wrote the letters anyway.
 
Nymzee said:
Hasn't he been ruled out via DNA from the letters anyway?

Assuming the killer wrote the letters anyway.
Click to expand...
The DNA was taken from letters that were handled by other people and not stored with the knowledge of how to preserve DNA. DNA tests were only done years later as DNA testing wasn't in use at the time of the murders.
 
trueblue84 said:
The DNA was taken from letters that were handled by other people and not stored with the knowledge of how to preserve DNA. DNA tests were only done years later as DNA testing wasn't in use at the time of the murders.
Click to expand...

Yeh know it was years later. Was it saliva DNA or just fingerprints? I mean to me I always thought it was him; just like you saw all the coincidences mounting up.
 
Nymzee said:
Hasn't he been ruled out via DNA from the letters anyway?

Assuming the killer wrote the letters anyway.
Click to expand...
See I would like to think he was clever enough to either have left no clues or clues to someone else to throw them off the sent, such as the gloves that got found I think in a taxi.
But DNA I don't think was known about then, so accidentally whoever did it surly would leave some.
 

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