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Time To Break FFP?

Is it time to take the hit and break FFP?

  • Yes

    Votes: 153 70.2%
  • No

    Votes: 51 23.4%
  • Maybe (give Brands 1 more window)

    Votes: 14 6.4%

  • Total voters
    218
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Ok USM sponsoring City and Etihad sponsoring us

I dunno, that would require City and Everton wanting to strengthen a "rival", yes I'm aware we arent Citys rivals, but still.

Doesn't seem to trouble the Red Bulls too much, they aren't even trying to disguise it!
The rules concern the same Nation.

Thats why City, the Watford fellas and Red Bull can have about 10 clubs.
 
I dunno, that would require City and Everton wanting to strengthen a "rival", yes I'm aware we arent Citys rivals, but still.


The rules concern the same Nation.

Thats why City, the Watford fellas and Red Bull can have about 10 clubs.
There are rules about them being in the same European competition which got glossed over when they were in the same competition. I'm increasingly thinking they should just let clubs do what they want as nobody bothers with the rules anyway.
 
They certainly seem very very limited, but I don't think you can fully compare football with general competition laws, as the teams agree to play by the rules when entering a tournament / league etc.

What UEFA can do is change the scopes of punishment and arguably the right to appeal.... Ultimately this will change the landscape dramatically and all of the below are on the table

1) Arms war between national states pretending to be football clubs
2) Uefa tightening regulations and reducing appeal rights (not sure if this can happen)
3) European superleague
4) Establishment clubs around Europe fighting more aggressively for TV rights on their own or bigger slices of the pie, particularly in the flatly distributed PL

In terms of "just smash it" hopefully we show real aggression

I'm a bit lost as to what points you're trying to make here. I can't stress this enough, but members clubs rules are not allowed to trump the laws of a country. I have said this from the outset. I said City would appeal, I said City would win, those who doubted it through these vague notions of "you have to sign up to the rules" back at me. Thats been proven wholly untrue. Think of it this way, South Africa used to have rules, they made everyone sign up to that were racist and therefore didn't feet the rules of countries. You can't do that.

Secondly, UEFA can't change the right to appeal in relation to CAS. CAS is a separate body. UEFA do not have it within their gambit to exert any influence of who can or can't go to CAS. Absolutely no control. They can make it harder to appeal internally, which would just make them more liable to be litigated against, and looked upon even less favourably in an impartial legal court. Any move to make it harder to appeal within UEFA will just make it even harder to have punishments upheld. If they are serious about revamping FFP, there will be some serious himble pie eaten, and a radical overhaulingof many of the key features (to penalising high wage bills, clubs who are in debt, and away from punishing certain clubs who acquire sponsorships).

As for the final 4 points.

1) I think this "arms race" comment is incendiary. We have always had an arms race in football. From the moment football was created it's been an arms race. Everton were invited into the football league partly because of an owner who had lots of money. Liverpool were then given preferential treatment, because the owner went on to form them. And so it went on.

My own view of this, is some clubs spend money, I'm in favour of legislation, but it's needs to be far simpler/understandable, and about trying to challenge rather then re-enforce the status quo (as all rules should be). However in general I'd rather have no legislation than bad legislation. All FFP has done is make football less competitive and a less interesting spectacle. So the arms race has already begun, and is in no small part down to FFP.

2) As indicated above, UEFA have no power to do this, and if the tried to would be counter sued for massive amounts money.

3) This European Super League gets bandied about a lot. I've written at great length on it before. To summarise; there is no real demand for it, if there was even a chance of a demand for it it would have occurred, given the budgets of most teams,it would be a flop and they would be bankrupt. Aside from that, I would love to see the justification from UEFA, who angered at changes they perceive against legislation as reducing inequality, their solution would be to create a European Super League.

4) People can ask for what they like. The unique aspect of the PL compared to other leagues is the competitive nature of it.We should be fighting to keep that, and re-enforce it. I mean it's not an argument that has anything to do with FFP. However if a side asks for more, I'd be in favour of expelling them. Their are certain clubs who extract far more than they put in already, and without the PL they would go bust. If they want to start demanding more, kick them out.
 
in theory no as the sponsorship should pass the "Market value test". That said, Man City's Etihad stadium (Proportion of overall deal) was far far higher in value than Arsenals Emirates deal at a similar time.

City's sponsorship was about 15 times the value. That has now been okayed in a European court. Thats now legal.
 

Its not a problem, Moshiri has already ploughed 350m into the business.

But that money isnt income, so when you spend it, you show a massive loss on the balance sheet.

City took UEFA to court.

No English team has ever breached FFP Rules, so the Premier League has never sanctioned a single club, so nobody knows how The Premier League would react.

Money isnt an issue, Moshiri will give us whatever we need, the issue is being able to spend it without doing something nobody has ever done before.

The relevant point here though, is that City put money into the club via sponsorship. That has now be deemed perfectly acceptable.
 
No; it has been deemed inadmissible under UEFA rules by a European court, due to timestamping.

That was one factor that was highlighted, but by no means the only factor. I mean the time stamping is another issue of weakness for UEFA. Unless they complete things, within 5 years now, no punishment can be found.

I mean the BBC< not for hyperbole used the phrase "FFP is in tatters". They took it to court, and lost.Nobody else is going to accept being taken to court.
 
The relevant point here though, is that City put money into the club via sponsorship. That has now be deemed perfectly acceptable.

Whats relevant is that UEFA knew nothing about it till Der Speigel exposed it.

The only reason City got away it is cos it was time-gated, basically UEFA don't even know their own rules.

Im not expecting any major FFP changes personally.

Just the same old things like City sponsoring themselves via Etihad and Moshiri doing the same with regards USM and Megafon, there is plenty of scope for creativity without going rogue.
 

Dont think it is that black and white unfortunately. The only real precedent set yesterday was the time-stamping issue. CAS were very clear that some claims from UEFA were invalid and others timestamped (Which suggests the evidence was there but unusable) under UEFA's own 5 year timestamp.

I think UEFA / PL will be desperate to hang on the FFP and probably amend the rules, especially after being made such fools of yesterday, by not understanding their own rules

There is absolutely no suggestion that the timing is the only issue. Nobody is reporting that. It was one of many factors. The key crux is the rules just don't fit European legalism. They are fundamentally anti-competitive. Once it saw an objective court of law, outside of the kangaroo courts they set up, would be thrown out.

I have said this from the outset, it's all accessible in my posts on this here.
 
Is there anything stopping USM sponsoring City £100m and City sponsoring us £100m to get around the rules ? would suit both clubs
Might as well just do what Juventus and Barcelona have done. They buy Davies for 60 million and we buy Stones for 60 million, both go onto income straight away but the expenditure is spread out over the years of contracts. Not a peep out of UEFA on Barcelona buying a 30 year old for 75 million.. the most obvious cooking of books to get around FFP you'll ever see.
 
Whats relevant is that UEFA knew nothing about it till Der Speigel exposed it.

The only reason City got away it is cos it was time-gated, basically UEFA don't even know their own rules.

Im not expecting any major FFP changes personally.

Just the same old things like City sponsoring themselves via Etihad and Moshiri doing the same with regards USM and Megafon, there is plenty of scope for creativity without going rogue.

I think we believe the same things will happen, but attach different interpretations to it.

Some of the creative solutions people are suggesting won't happen and won't need to happen. Usmanov will continue to sponsor Everton, at a broadly respectable level and nothing will happen.

The point you make is right too, UEFA didn't even want to take City to court, until Der Speigel alleged rule breaches far beyond anything we have done or would do. However even that has been thrown out.

UEFA will not be taking people to court anymore. It is a costly exercise and they won't be massively keen on throwing more money down the drain.
 
Might as well just do what Juventus and Barcelona have done. They buy Davies for 60 million and we buy Stones for 60 million, both go onto income straight away but the expenditure is spread out over the years of contracts. Not a peep out of UEFA on Barcelona buying a 30 year old for 75 million.. the most obvious cooking of books to get around FFP you'll ever see.

We might do this with Kenny and Weston from Schalke.
 

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