VAR

[Marcus Kendall]

100% this is the problem.

I have no idea how they can take the penalty away but not give him a second yellow

It makes absolutely no sense. This was a half pregnant decision

Haven't they stopped booking players for diving now after realising they'd be booking half the Liverpool team each week?

 

[NathDogg]

The bolded is the problem with football overall. As long as guys get rewarded, it'll continue into perpetuity

Errrrrmmmmm, we didn’t get “rewarded” - they overturned a cast iron penalty and even that wasn’t for Youngs “dive”.

Will Saturdays decision to rescind the pen mean no more diving from any team now…..

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Errrrrmmmmm, we didn’t get “rewarded” - they overturned a cast iron penalty and even that wasn’t for Youngs “dive”.

Good god man

Correct, he didn't get rewarded this time

 

[NathDogg]

Good god man

Correct, he didn't get rewarded this time

It should have been a penalty though, you agree or no?

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

It should have been a penalty though, you agree or no?

It was 50/50. Live I thought it very well could have been.

On replay, it's clear Young made a meal of it, and fell over once he knew he couldn't get to the ball (giving him benefit of the doubt - this is the equivalent of a grown man with momentum not running through an arm tackle, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt).

And the way he fell wasn't commensurate with the fouls

Like I said if that was given against us, it would be harsh. But yeah I think it's 50/50

 

[NathDogg]

It was 50/50. Live I thought it very well could have been.

On replay, it's clear Young made a meal of it, and fell over once he knew he couldn't get to the ball (giving him benefit of the doubt - this is the equivalent of a grown man with momentum not running through an arm tackle, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt).

And the way he fell wasn't commensurate with the fouls

Like I said if that was given against us, it would be harsh. But yeah I think it's 50/50

Yup, we’re in end of times.

It’s a penalty ffs. You’re saying Young should have ignored the shirt pulls and just been stronger…..Kinell.

If an Everton player commits that kind of foul in the box it’s not harsh, its a stupid challenge and it’s a pen to the opposition, or should be.

Take all the “clear and obvious” rubbish out, take the exaggeration from Young out (no problem with it btw), take the VAR corruption out, and just view the incident.

Is there a foul? Might not be Maguire, but there is a foul.

Is Young impeded/hindered unfairly from reaching the loose ball and having a goal scoring opportunity?

If that foul is committed outside the area would/should a free kick be given to Everton?

Can’t paint the picture any clearer, if people can’t see it we might as well pack in.

 

[pfim]

Look I'm going to have a view here that's probably different than everyone, but it needs to be said

I hate all the embellishment/diving that occurs today in all sports, not least of which is in football, which probably has the worst actors of them all

So, coming from that perspective wholistically, I can see VAR overturning this one. We can debate the merits of "if this wasn't Everton, it wouldn't have changed" etc, etc, but it's my opinion I want to see less of what Young did, because big picture it'll make the game better. If I saw a guy embellish that contact against us and a penalty was given in the 90th minute, I'd be fuming.

On this particular circumstance, two things can be true. 1) It's entirely possible that the sum total of what occurred was enough to be a penalty. It was close. The only guy that knows for sure if he was truly impeded vs dove is Young. and 2) the contact on Young didn't warrant how he fell/how he flopped.

I'd have liked to see him try to get to the ball rather than focus on winning a penalty.

The issue with this argument is if he doesn't do a Louganis, the penalty isn't called and it's not reviewed. I don't like it, but that's why players dive, because the fouls aren't being called.

 

[Lanolin]

Yup, we’re in end of times.

It’s a penalty ffs. You’re saying Young should have ignored the shirt pulls and just been stronger…..Kinell.

If an Everton player commits that kind of foul in the box it’s not harsh, its a stupid challenge and it’s a pen to the opposition, or should be.

Take all the “clear and obvious” rubbish out, take the exaggeration from Young out (no problem with it btw), take the VAR corruption out, and just view the incident.

Is there a foul? Might not be Maguire, but there is a foul.

Is Young impeded/hindered unfairly from reaching the loose ball and having a goal scoring opportunity?

If that foul is committed outside the area would/should a free kick be given to Everton?

Can’t paint the picture any clearer, if people can’t see it we might as well pack in.

Context is relevant though. The simple fact is you don't always get pens given for shirt pulls or the like. We can argue whether that's right or wrong, but we can't argue with the truth of it. I've definitely seen our players (Tarkowski in particular) pulling shirts this season, i've quite often been at games half expecting VAR to give a pen against us but they haven't. That means you can't really just use the 'there's a shirt pull so it's 1000% a pen, end of' line, because there are endless examples of them not being given.

For me it's a pen, but I don't think it's one where you can say it would be scandalous to not be given in real time. You said a few posts back that he was 'having his shirt ripped off his back' or something very similar, but in reality that's not the case is it? It was a tug, not a full on yanking back.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Context is relevant though. The simple fact is you don't always get pens given for shirt pulls or the like. We can argue whether that's right or wrong, but we can't argue with the truth of it. I've definitely seen our players (Tarkowski in particular) pulling shirts this season, i've quite often been at games half expecting VAR to give a pen against us but they haven't. That means you can't really just use the 'there's a shirt pull so it's 1000% a pen, end of' line, because there are endless examples of them not being given.

For me it's a pen, but I don't think it's one where you can say it would be scandalous to not be given in real time. You said a few posts back that he was 'having his shirt ripped off his back' or something very similar, but in reality that's not the case is it? It was a tug, not a full on yanking back.

I mean this is a great point. Tarkowski being a great example for us. If you want to go letter of the law, he's fouling on 50% of corners. But the ref has to give some leeway to let men play a men's sport out there

 

[pfim]

I mean this is a great point. Tarkowski being a great example for us. If you want to go letter of the law, he's fouling on 50% of corners. But the ref has to give some leeway to let men play a men's sport out there

But again, that's why players dive. You start handing out penalties for shirt pulling, the shirt pulling will stop.

I'm not really defending them, but this is one of the biggest reasons why it's impossible to be a referee. What you're suggesting (and what they do) is just ignore some fouls and call others.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

But again, that's why players dive. You start handing out penalties for shirt pulling, the shirt pulling will stop.

I'm not really defending them, but this is one of the biggest reasons why it's impossible to be a referee. What you're suggesting (and what they do) is just ignore some fouls and call others.

No argument there

 

[NathDogg]

Context is relevant though. The simple fact is you don't always get pens given for shirt pulls or the like. We can argue whether that's right or wrong, but we can't argue with the truth of it. I've definitely seen our players (Tarkowski in particular) pulling shirts this season, i've quite often been at games half expecting VAR to give a pen against us but they haven't. That means you can't really just use the 'there's a shirt pull so it's 1000% a pen, end of' line, because there are endless examples of them not being given.

For me it's a pen, but I don't think it's one where you can say it would be scandalous to not be given in real time. You said a few posts back that he was 'having his shirt ripped off his back' or something very similar, but in reality that's not the case is it? It was a tug, not a full on yanking back.

For me that’s the part of the issue, and why the water is muddied - why aren’t pulls given as penalties? They should be - I’m sick of screaming about holding and pulling on corners from all teams including us.

Context be damned, refs need to use their eyes and give what they see, and if they miss it that’s what VAR should be there for.

They should be (and nearly always are) given as fouls when committed outside the box, but something seems to go wrong when it happens inside the area - why?

I’ve just highlighted the bold above - the pen was given in real time, the ref called it right, but cited the wrong player. There was no need for VAR to get involved the way they did, and for not fully reviewing the entire footage screams of corruption.

Had he missed it, which I find hard to accept, then VAR would have reviewed all the footage and would have had to have given the penalty.

Im not getting into the semantics of how hard he was pulled and all that bollox - it’s a foul, it’s a pen, they need to give them more to stop this mitigation that some fans are willing to accept the corruption all to easily.

 

[pfim]

For me that’s the part of the issue, and why the water is muddied - why aren’t pulls given as penalties? They should be - I’m sick of screaming about holding and pulling on corners from all teams including us.

Context be damned, refs need to use their eyes and give what they see, and if they miss it that’s what VAR should be there for.

They should be (and nearly always are) given as fouls when committed outside the box, but something seems to go wrong when it happens inside the area - why?

I’ve just highlighted the bold above - the pen was given in real time, the ref called it right, but cited the wrong player. There was no need for VAR to get involved the way they did, and for not fully reviewing the entire footage screams of corruption.

Had he missed it, which I find hard to accept, then VAR would have reviewed all the footage and would have had to have given the penalty.

Im not getting into the semantics of how hard he was pulled and all that bollox - it’s a foul, it’s a pen, they need to give them more to stop this mitigation that some fans are willing to accept the corruption all to easily.

I also think that the shirt pulling is often called when the player has a clear sight of the ball, as Ashley Young did in this case.

Do I think he gets there first? No, because his legs have been fossilized, but he certainly has a clear path to it and no one between him and the goal in that moment.

 

[matty1878]

I also think that the shirt pulling is often called when the player has a clear sight of the ball, as Ashley Young did in this case.

Do I think he gets there first? No, because his legs have been fossilized, but he certainly has a clear path to it and no one between him and the goal in that moment.

do you think at any if the top 4 clubs

IE the big 4

it’s given?

 

[Lanolin]

For me that’s the part of the issue, and why the water is muddied - why aren’t pulls given as penalties? They should be - I’m sick of screaming about holding and pulling on corners from all teams including us.

Context be damned, refs need to use their eyes and give what they see, and if they miss it that’s what VAR should be there for.

They should be (and nearly always are) given as fouls when committed outside the box, but something seems to go wrong when it happens inside the area - why?

I’ve just highlighted the bold above - the pen was given in real time, the ref called it right, but cited the wrong player. There was no need for VAR to get involved the way they did, and for not fully reviewing the entire footage screams of corruption.

Had he missed it, which I find hard to accept, then VAR would have reviewed all the footage and would have had to have given the penalty.

Im not getting into the semantics of how hard he was pulled and all that bollox - it’s a foul, it’s a pen, they need to give them more to stop this mitigation that some fans are willing to accept the corruption all to easily.

No I agree with the majority of that. I think you've misunderstood what I mean when I say context though, i'm not talking about context in the game, I'm talking about the context of them regularly not being given. Like I said, whether that or shouldn't be the case is a totally different argument, the context is that they aren't always given and ignoring that fact just frames the argument completely incorrectly. Again, I think it was a pen, but I am aware that the reality of the situation is shirt pulling isn't treated the same as lots of other offences are and so I don't think it would have been scandalous not to give it in real time. Put it this way, I've seen MUCH worse shirt pulls go unpunished this season.