Women's World Cup 2023.

[mmmmsnouts]

Would probably toss a bet on England if I could. That side of the bracket is very soft compared to the Sweden/US/Netherlands/Japan/Spain gauntlet.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Arrogance, complacency, self-aggrandisment, and delusion. A lowering of standards.

I live in Berlin. German football's biggest problem is it still hasn't accepted that it has a problem. Pep Guardiola made such an impression here during his time at Bayern - despite failing three times in Europe with a side that was European champions when he inherited it - that German football has spent the last decade imagining itself as some kind of Teutonic Tiki-Taka powerhouse rather than the sad Lidl knock-off it actually is. This has coincided with the promotion of flashy, inadequate serial failures at international level - Leroy Sane, Timo Werner, Joshua Kimmich - as "stars", when they wouldn't lace the boots of the genuine articles German football took for granted. But those heroes reflected characteristics that many of today's Germans are less likely to elevate: never-say-die spirit, mental toughness, ruthlessness... Who wants to see themselves as ruthless when they can be feted as a delicate, technical tyro representing a new Germany? It's as if the German forgot that their greatest players were both ruthless and technically superior: Beckenbauer, Breitner, Rummenigge, Schuster, Matthäus, Sammer...

There was a cultural change here. The "old values" were thrown out. This was fine as long as they had the players to play the Iberian way. For a while, they had Kroos. And Thomas Müller could have played in any era. But the likes of Kimmich and Havertz are a joke, by comparison. This may seem unfair, but to be a great German player you need to win a World Cup or European Championship. These guys are, instead, getting eliminated at the group stages or first knock-out round - continuously. There's a hint, whisper it, that perhaps even the Champions League success that some of these players enjoyed might have had rather a lot to do with foreign team-mates...

As for the women, I was staggered at the amount of times Martina Voss-Tecklenburg was the guest analyst on Champions League or Bundesliga shows in the last few years. She's everywhere on German football tv shows. What has she won? A single Champions League in 2009. Nothing at international level, and she's been at that level since 2012. She's the biggest loser today because we are very unlikely to see her on our screens from now on...

As for next summer's European Championship, I would expect Germany to bomb out in the group - again. These players are under scrutiny now, and the likes of Kimmich won't hack that pressure. Hansi Flick has failed to see the writing on the wall and persevered with tried and trusted failures. He's lucky to still be in a job. The fact that he is - and that he sticks by consistent underachievers - tells you all you need to know about Germany's chances next summer at home. Complacency, inertia, and incompetence at the DFB has led to this. It will be richly deserved.

My counter argument is that knockout tournaments are weird and stuff happens. Germany will probably be back sooner than later.

 

[Billy Dean]

My counter argument is that knockout tournaments are weird and stuff happens. Germany will probably be back sooner than later.

There's an argument that it's becoming a bit of a pattern with Germany though. Lots of group stage and second phase exits recently - 3 world cups, 1 U21 euros, 1 euros

@Drico re the playing style issue, I can remember when England beat Germany in the last euros, German pundits were mostly complaining about how England played rather than Germany's shortcomings

 

[Drico]

My counter argument is that knockout tournaments are weird and stuff happens. Germany will probably be back sooner than later.

Germany will definitely be back: the size of the country and one of the richest football cultures in the world demands and almost guarantees that. But what we are seeing right now is not a one-off. The men's team is in a period of historic failure. The last time they failed to make it out of a World Cup group was 1938. Then came 2018 and 2022. Unprecedented. Throw in a pathetic European Championship and you have a trend.

The women seem to have been affected by a similar malaise. The constant presence of Voss-Tecklenburg on TV suggests a different dynamic in play, where executives want a better gender balance on TV, the coach is more than happy to cash in on the opportunity, and it all becomes a bit cosy and self-congratulatory. You see her on TV far more than Hansi Flick... It's great she - and the women's game - has a presence - but people will want answers now - and rightly so.

Since 2006, younger Germans, naturally enough, have wanted to celebrate their country for its progressiveness, inclusiveness, and multiculturalism. They wanted to wave the flag proudly again - for the right reasons. This was a wonderful development. However, some of the characteristics that made German football the best in the world have been rather dismissed as harbingers of the past. Guardiola's modernity magnified the sense that what was once considered quintessentially German was no longer admirable, fit for purpose, or relevant. The result is a rather bloodless squad of sometimes technically adept players playing without personality, mental strenghth, or self-belief.

The next step will be for German football to admit that many of these players are actually not very good at all. Because while the likes of Kimmich and Havertz ARE technically adept (if lacking many other "traditional" qualities), Matthias Ginter - the eternal reserve - still makes German squads... Why? The entire German defence is third rate. They have simply not been producing enough well-rounded quality players. Next summer will be the moment the pfennig drops...

 

[Billy Dean]

Germany will definitely be back: the size of the country and one of the richest football cultures in the world demands and almost guarantees that. But what we are seeing right now is not a one-off. The men's team is in a period of historic failure. The last time they failed to make it out of a World Cup group was 1938. Then came 2018 and 2022. Unprecedented. Throw in a pathetic European Championship and you have a trend.

The women seem to have been affected by a similar malaise. The constant presence of Voss-Tecklenburg on TV suggests a different dynamic in play, where executives want a better gender balance on TV, the coach is more than happy to cash in on the opportunity, and it all becomes a bit cosy and self-congratulatory. You see her on TV far more than Hansi Flick... It's great she - and the women's game - has a presence - but people will want answers now - and rightly so.

Since 2006, younger Germans, naturally enough, have wanted to celebrate their country for its progressiveness, inclusiveness, and multiculturalism. They wanted to wave the flag proudly again - for the right reasons. This was a wonderful development. However, some of the characteristics that made German football the best in the world have been rather dismissed as harbingers of the past. Guardiola's modernity magnified the sense that what was once considered quintessentially German was no longer admirable, fit for purpose, or relevant. The result is a rather bloodless squad of sometimes technically adept players playing without personality, mental strenghth, or self-belief.

The next step will be for German football to admit that many of these players are actually not very good at all. Because while the likes of Kimmich and Havertz ARE technically adept (if lacking many other "traditional" qualities), Matthias Ginter - the eternal reserve - still makes German squads... Why? The entire German defence is third rate. They have simply not been producing enough well-rounded quality players. Next summer will be the moment the pfennig drops...

Re the two bold parts. 1938 they didn't even enter the WC I think, because of the war etc?

Re the 2nd bolded part I think that goes back before Guardiola

 

[Wizard]

So, it's time for the knock out rounds - here's how it works - and I just made this up, so I get to adjudicate any disputes / questions / concerns:

Playoff System:

For each winner predicted in the Round of 16 - 1 pt
For each winner predicted in the Quarterfinals - 2 pts
For each winner predicted in the Semifinals - 3 pts
For winner predicted in 3rd place match - 4 pts
For winner predicted in the Final - 5 pts

Note - you must predict ALL the knockout matches in order to play - entries must be posted in this GOT thread prior to kickoff of the Switzerland / Spain match.

Post a list of your predicted winners - I’ll put together a spreadsheet and post updates after each round.

Winner(s) gets eternal GOT Glory.
2nd place gets to feel like they are less of a soccer nerd than the winner(s)
3rd and beyond get to hold their heads up high as they get participation ribbons.
Anyone who participates and earns literally 0 points get to be feted for their ignorance.

Spain, Holland, Japan, USA, Australia, France, England, Colombia

Holland, Japan,France, England

England

Putting way too much faith in England after one great performance but let’s see. We have Lauren James though so bring it on

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

There's an argument that it's becoming a bit of a pattern with Germany though. Lots of group stage and second phase exits recently - 3 world cups, 1 U21 euros, 1 euros

@Drico re the playing style issue, I can remember when England beat Germany in the last euros, German pundits were mostly complaining about how England played rather than Germany's shortcomings

England and Germany have kind of switched around since the 2010's

 

[MrPerfectNot]

Spain, Netherlands, Japan, USA, Denmark, France, England, Colombia

Netherlands, Japan, France, England

Japan, England

Japan (3rd place will be France)

 

[MrPerfectNot]

So, it's time for the knock out rounds - here's how it works - and I just made this up, so I get to adjudicate any disputes / questions / concerns:

Playoff System:

For each winner predicted in the Round of 16 - 1 pt
For each winner predicted in the Quarterfinals - 2 pts
For each winner predicted in the Semifinals - 3 pts
For winner predicted in 3rd place match - 4 pts
For winner predicted in the Final - 5 pts

Note - you must predict ALL the knockout matches in order to play - entries must be posted in this GOT thread prior to kickoff of the Switzerland / Spain match.

Post a list of your predicted winners - I’ll put together a spreadsheet and post updates after each round.

Winner(s) gets eternal GOT Glory.
2nd place gets to feel like they are less of a soccer nerd than the winner(s)
3rd and beyond get to hold their heads up high as they get participation ribbons.
Anyone who participates and earns literally 0 points get to be feted for their ignorance.

Come on y'all, it will only take you a moment to prove you've better predictive skills than I have!!!!!

 

[MrPerfectNot]

Spain, Holland, Japan, USA, Australia, France, England, Colombia

Holland, Japan,France, England

England

Putting way too much faith in England after one great performance but let’s see. We have Lauren James though so bring it on

Thanks, @Wizard , who takes on England in the Final? And who wins 3rd?

 

[Wizard]

Thanks, @Wizard , who takes on England in the Final? And who wins 3rd?

I’ll go Japan losing to England and Holland beating France for 3rd

 

[Drico]

Re the two bold parts. 1938 they didn't even enter the WC I think, because of the war etc?

Re the 2nd bolded part I think that goes back before Guardiola

No. There was no war in 1938. They were beaten 4-2 by Switzerland after a replay in what was a single elimination tournament. 16 teams entered - Germany failed to win the tie and went home after two games - a draw and the replay. That was their worst performance ever - until the last two World Cups joined it in the hall of shame.

Yes, it goes back to 2006 - the old ways were somehow discredited after the 1998-2004 era because the team was so poor. The "old ways" - fighting spirit, mental strength, ruthlessness - couldn't mask the utter dearth of quality players, but those values were, to some extent, the baby that got thrown out with the bath water as the Lahm, Schweinsteiger, and Podolski generation emerged. Guardiola's impact drove this further - because they actually had fine players then who could, to some extent, trade purely on technical ability (though that was always a dubious take because there is a strong argument that the lack of balls, not to put too fine a point on it, contributed to the failure of 2012 when they lost to a deeply inferior Italian side).

 

[MrPerfectNot]

9 hrs and 40 minutes according to my computer - get your picks in!!!!

 

[MrPerfectNot]

 

[MrPerfectNot]