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Your running for prime minister

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Its not me personally who suggests that, its history. There was a television programme a few months ago that had the delay of the second world war as its biggest mistake in a top 50 countdown of mistakes. As I said, do some reading. On the back of WW1, we waited until we were forced - for the reasons Dunc illustrated to you, reasons widely accepted as much as the sky is Blue. Yet, you for some absolutely bizarre reason claim it to be "utter tosh". Beggars belief - so much so that I'm reluctant to spend any more time discussing any issue in this thread with you.

Sorry I didn't see the programme of mistakes - did it have decca not signing the Beatles on the list? However, there are other sources of information & opinion.
We didn't wait until we were forced - we could have not declared war when we did. Even after we had there were many who wished to reach a deal with Hitler so as to back out of the war at an early stage. I still don't understand why you consider we, & presumably France also, were forced to declare war when we did. The knowledge of the Holocaust & the invasion of Poland may be worthy reasons to go to war but it doesn't make the decision a wise one. War should be an act of last resort & always be in the perceived national interest. In my opinion, & if you do some reading you'll find I'm not alone in this, the ultimatum regarding Poland was foolish & our subsequent declaration of war ill-judged.
 
I gave you that! What were you disagreeing with? Because now, it does not look like all of it.

I'm disagreeing with the perception that Britain's hand was forced into declaring war not with the fact that the Holocaust happened, or that we knew about it, as did the Americans, of course - perhaps the width of the Atlantic meant they couldn't feel the force.
 
Sorry I didn't see the programme of mistakes - did it have decca not signing the Beatles on the list?

It did actually.

However, there are other sources of information & opinion.
We didn't wait until we were forced - we could have not declared war when we did.

We delayed declaring war for as long as possible (there was a mutual assistance treaty signed...) War was effectively forced on Britain.

War should be an act of last resort & always be in the perceived national interest.

It would have been in the worlds interest to take action sooner, after Hitler violated the Treaty of Versailles by introducing military conscription - just months after becoming Fuhrer.

Then a few years later came the appeasement

Appeasement

The appeasement of Hitler by Britain and France in 1935-1939 was a huge mistake. Hitler's Germany was initially weak, and gradually became more aggressive as it became stronger. Hitler, the ultimate aggressor who wanted the entire world and said so clearly, could be stopped sooner. But instead, these countries turned to appeasement and to great unilateral reduction of their own military forces. The result was that when Hitler invaded France in 1940, their armies were weak and not modern, while his modern army used not only German weapons, but also the arsenal of the dismantled Czech army, enough to equip 40 divisions. Sacrificing Czechoslovakia to appease Hitler just gave him much more power to defeat the western allies.

To claim its "utter tosh" to say it was a mistake to not take action against Hiter sooner, and to say Britain delayed and eventually forced into war is... well, I cant say without being patronising.
 
So that'll be me, and I'm telling you now - He, as do the vast majority over there, feel they are to make a difference.

The war in Iraq was supposedly about the liberation of the Iraqi people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein. We got rid. We've set up as much infrastructure as we're likely to, so we've done what we set out to do. Get them the **** out.

The war in Afghanistan was supposedly about....uh.....hmm...oh yeah, Terrrr. That's right. The war on Terrrrrr. They're doing absolutely nothing worthwhile in Afghanistan, so there's no reason to keep putting our kids in danger there.

They've 'made their difference' in Iraq, they were NEVER going to 'make a difference' in Afghanistan, so to send even more people into the firing line to try and get some mythical resolution out of the situation is asinine.

It would be an insult to his and everyone elses memory if they are pulled out and nothing positive or constructive arises.

Again, rubbish. More people dying will not add meaning to a pointless death, no matter how much you long for it. Going to war on a lie is going to war on a lie.

Your argument can, has been and always will be used in reference to war. Shame on one occasion it was prior WW2.

Can't say I understand this statement at all. However, if you're trying to compare the war in Afghanistan to a war against a superpower that was trying to conquer the world, you're way off. One had a very definite and exact purpose, which was just.
 

Can't say I understand this statement at all. However, if you're trying to compare the war in Afghanistan to a war against a superpower that was trying to conquer the world, you're way off. One had a very definite and exact purpose, which was just.

The point was Neo, that "superpower" wasn't always a superpower.

It grew because of a reluctance to go to war - a reluctance stemming from the argument you gave of "no more deaths" (After WW1).

Thats why WW2 was brought up, that and to demonstrate how positives can arise from war - imagine if no one took action against Hitler?

I suggest you read http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/comp/cw30husseinhitler.htm

We're never going to agree, you think the Iraq war is pointless and has no positives - I think (or at least pray...) it has - and the positives can only be affirmed through longevity.
 
I'm disagreeing with the perception that Britain's hand was forced into declaring war not with the fact that the Holocaust happened, or that we knew about it, as did the Americans, of course - perhaps the width of the Atlantic meant they couldn't feel the force.

Germany walked into old Germany. That Polish border was guaranteed by Britain. That Britain and the US and Russia did nothing when so many died for nothing and former allies burner is a strike against the character and dignity that said countries pretend to conduct themselves with currently.
 
The point was Neo, that "superpower" wasn't always a superpower.

It grew because of a reluctance to go to war - a reluctance stemming from the argument you gave of "no more deaths" (After WW1).

Thats why WW2 was brought up, that and to demonstrate how positives can arise from war - imagine if no one took action against Hitler?

Right but why is that brought up in relation to not going to war in Afghanistan? They're not comparable. The people who wouldn't stop Germany were reprehensible, because they were a threat. There will always be times when warfare is necessary, the argument is that this right now is not one of those times. It's wholly unnecessary.

We're never going to agree, you think the Iraq war is pointless and has no positives - I think (or at least pray...) it has - and the positives can only be affirmed through longevity.

No let's be clear. While not a fan of the Iraq war I think that it had far more purpose and positives than the war in Afghanistan, which we're still fighting, and which is the one that so does my head in. And even though there was slight justification for the war in Iraq, everything we were going to achieve we HAVE achieved, so our part in that conflict should be over.
 
Right but why is that brought up in relation to not going to war in Afghanistan? They're not comparable. The people who wouldn't stop Germany were reprehensible, because they were a threat. There will always be times when warfare is necessary, the argument is that this right now is not one of those times. It's wholly unnecessary.

Are they not? Have a look at a timeline leading to WW2, how long did it take Hitler, a man with very little when he took power - a Country crippled with debt from WW1 - a Country 'forbidden' to have a decent army - to become a 'superpower'

Lets say the world sat back, as they did with Hitler. Years down the line who's to say what terrorism could achieve? Mass chemical bombs? 5,10,15 years down the line we could have had a war 10x the size of the ones with Afganistan and Iraq. Who knows?

Maybe September 11th was the equal of the violation of the Treaty of Versailles. An act of sheer defiance - The wake up call - in the past it was perilously ignored.

I wouldn't dismiss any comparison out of hand. Hussein and Hitler have startling similarities, one was just dealt a more convenient set of cards.

And even though there was slight justification for the war in Iraq, everything we were going to achieve we HAVE achieved, so our part in that conflict should be over.

All down to opinion, as I said, I think the positives can only be affirmed through longevity.
 
It did actually.

We delayed declaring war for as long as possible (there was a mutual assistance treaty signed...) War was effectively forced on Britain.

It would have been in the worlds interest to take action sooner, after Hitler violated the Treaty of Versailles by introducing military conscription - just months after becoming Fuhrer.

Then a few years later came the appeasement

To claim its "utter tosh" to say it was a mistake to not take action against Hiter sooner, and to say Britain delayed and eventually forced into war is... well, I cant say without being patronising.
You should really be able to handle somebody having a different opinion to yours without having to be so dismissive in your repsonse, even if you have had your view confirmed on a tv programme - there are lots of tv programmes you know.

War is only forced on a country by another invading it or declaring war, unless that happens one has a choice as to whether to go to war, with whom & when to do so.

Now that you're talking about the world's interests being best served by "taking action" sooner, rather than appeasing Hitler, I agree. Although, as I mentioned, there are more subtle ways than starting a rather large war.

However, as there was no early intervention, at the point when Britain declared war it made very little sense at all. Firstly the pretext was Hitler's invasion of Poland, which we could do absolutely nothing about. If we wished to present Hitler with an ultimatum it would have made more sense for it to relate to the low countries & France. Britain was also ill-prepared for war, we had no great build-up like the Germans had - we'd even been selling off our "surplus" battleships to Japan.

You should also bear in mind that Hitler's Germany wanted to expand eastwards, same as Germany had desired to in WWI, as they saw this territory as the place they could build a German Empire [Germany being a relatively young country had missed out as other countries had carved up the globe & their frustration had been building since the late 19th century]. Consequently the main war for Germany was always going to be against the Soviet Union & it's essentially the Soviet's who defeated Hitler.

From a purely selfish point of view Britain had no great need to rush to pick a side early, if at all. It would probably have been in our national interest to sit on the sidelines whilst building up our military capability in anticipation of probable involvement in the conflict at some point.

This approach may have also changed the war in the east, as it was only after we declared war on Germany that Japan moved on from the excursions into Manchuria, & the few bloody noses the Soviets gave them along the Sino-Russian borders. The Japanes rightly figured that Britain would be stretched too thinly to defends her interests in the Far East & so began their progression down through indo-china with the aim of taking India.

If you really felt Britain's hand was forced by the Holocaust, surely the same principle would see us in conflict wherever there is a totalitarian regime with genocidal tendencies - but it didn't stop us becoming allies of Stalin's USSR.
 

Are they not? Have a look at a timeline leading to WW2, how long did it take Hitler, a man with very little when he took power - a Country crippled with debt from WW1 - a Country 'forbidden' to have a decent army - to become a 'superpower'

Lets say the world sat back, as they did with Hitler. Years down the line who's to say what terrorism could achieve? Mass chemical bombs? 5,10,15 years down the line we could have had a war 10x the size of the ones with Afganistan and Iraq. Who knows?

Maybe September 11th was the equal of the violation of the Treaty of Versailles. An act of sheer defiance - The wake up call - in the past it was perilously ignored.

I wouldn't dismiss any comparison out of hand. Hussein and Hitler have startling similarities, one was just dealt a more convenient set of cards.

You've lost me now mate. War in Afghanistan, not Iraq, so a comparison between Hussein and Hitler isn't applicable. Neither is 9/11 Hussein's 'breaking of the treaty of Verseilles', considering it was Al Qaeda and Bin Laden of Afghanistan who commited that atrocity.

We went to war in Afghanistan to take out Al Qaeda and destabalise the ruling Taliban. We've done neither. So we should gtfo before more soldiers die, rather than send more soldiers in TO die so that the families of the other dead soldiers can feel better about it.
 
The Afghan war has my full support mainly becuase of the terrorists that where running the country,but other than a long,long encampment by our troops there i just cant see what it'll do for that country in the long run we have to try diplomacy to whomever wants to talk it worked eventually in northern ireland its may,big may i might add,work there too.

The Iraq war was about nothing more than oil we should not have gotten involved with it at all simple as that,there was no proof at all about "weapons of mass destruction" just smoke and mirrors stuff to muddy the waters,as a Labour party member i'm still ashamed that my party led us into that war.
 

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