5 games to go - as good as it gets or can it be maintained?

[bluestevon]

Thing is though mate, you have to go for it every match - three points. Koeman for me is too conservative away from home, more especially against the better teams.

You have to roll the dice to get CL points totals and that's not in him. He's a bit like Moyes: too concerned with avoiding a hiding from one of the big boys.

Honest assessment, we don't perform well enough away from home to get CL atm, our home form is 100% good enough, so question becomes is it a system thing or mentality from players, manager, or both which is seeing such a marked difference in performances home/away.

Chelsea game aside, we haven't been battered in any other game this season, been outplayed a few times by a better team (City away etc), but more often than not, it'd not being outplayed, it's not showing up to a game thats been the issue - is that a mentality thing - pretty sure the manager didn't go to Stoke or Burnley or Hull etc fearing a hiding.

End of the day, it all comes to the same point, we need better players, with a stronger mentality, and with more consistency to get top 4 - win a cup, or achieve anything greater than that.

Our biggest asset, Lukaku, is also a big weakness, if he turns up and is up for the game then yeah we can beat anyone, if he has a day when he's not up for it, we look absolutely toothless. Seriously need IF he stays to have options in the team besides IF Lukaku is on fire or not determining our performance.

Get your boy Siggy in, get another good hungry forward in and get some pace in the team - and sod it, sign Rooney as well, worst that happens is he doesn't add anything, but could give us a bit of the right mentality and rub off on some other players

 

[Saint Domingo]

It's all about mentality, the players should have been looking at the run in as a free swing pressure free to chase down the top 6. Instead we all knew they'd choke at Anfield, even when ahead most of us would have put our houses on them letting it slip v United and since Leicester we've pretty much turned up to every away game thinking a point is ok. Top 4 that does not maketh but then most of this squad have a nose bleed at the thought of finishing above 7th. New players with better mentality needed.

 

[davek]

Honest assessment, we don't perform well enough away from home to get CL atm, our home form is 100% good enough, so question becomes is it a system thing or mentality from players, manager, or both which is seeing such a marked difference in performances home/away.

Chelsea game aside, we haven't been battered in any other game this season, been outplayed a few times by a better team (City away etc), but more often than not, it'd not being outplayed, it's not showing up to a game thats been the issue - is that a mentality thing - pretty sure the manager didn't go to Stoke or Burnley or Hull etc fearing a hiding.

End of the day, it all comes to the same point, we need better players, with a stronger mentality, and with more consistency to get top 4 - win a cup, or achieve anything greater than that.

Our biggest asset, Lukaku, is also a big weakness, if he turns up and is up for the game then yeah we can beat anyone, if he has a day when he's not up for it, we look absolutely toothless. Seriously need IF he stays to have options in the team besides IF Lukaku is on fire or not determining our performance.

Get your boy Siggy in, get another good hungry forward in and get some pace in the team - and sod it, sign Rooney as well, worst that happens is he doesn't add anything, but could give us a bit of the right mentality and rub off on some other players

Here's a thought: first half of the season away from home we picked up 10 points on the road; so far, with two to play away, we have 6 points from our away games in the second half of the season. First half/second half of the season may not an arbitrary choice to make a distinction about as it pretty much chimed in with a change of play and fortunes (certainly at home when we doubled our wins from 4 to currently 8 first half compared to second half of the season). My guess is we've regressed away from Goodison (or certainly not advanced as the season wore on) because the game plan changed from quick long balls out wide and downfield to Bolasie/Lukaku and that was a way of playing that was more fruitful in terms of catching home teams out and picking up more points (although we did lose more away games in the first half of the season than second half we went for the counter more and acquired more points). In short: away from home we may have become too ponderous and overthink our moves...which is a falling back into old ways in previous seasons when we dominated possession but didn't kill teams off.

A balance has to be struck away from home, and we either have to mix it up more in-game or choose more wisely the game plan we go with in terms of direct or patient build up.

 

[davek]

It's all about mentality, the players should have been looking at the run in as a free swing pressure free to chase down the top 6. Instead we all knew they'd choke at Anfield, even when ahead most of us would have put our houses on them letting it slip v United and since Leicester we've pretty much turned up to every away game thinking a point is ok. Top 4 that does not maketh but then most of this squad have a nose bleed at the thought of finishing above 7th. New players with better mentality needed.

Yep. Mentality is massive. A core of our players are from previous eras and need putting out to pasture. They may function adequately (much of the time at least) but they will never be winners. They've had adequate time to prove they can be and they failed every meaningful test.

Not good enough. Get rid and get winners in.

 

[blueblue]

We have done really well to be where we are with the squad as it currently stands.
The injuries to Bolasie, Coleman and Funes Mori have gutted the squad which was already paper thin after the deadwood was moved on in January.
We have come to accept it as usual, but the number of young academy players in the team and on the bench on matchday is amazing and limiting at the same time.
Holgate, Davies, Lookmam, Pennington, Calvert-Lewin, Kenny and Williams are involved most weeks and as good as they are they cannot be expected to push us into a top four battle.

Seventh is about right for us this season and the summer will tell us if the ambition is really there to push on to challenge for the top four.
Top four is far from impossible next season. We are not far from it at the moment after a desperately poor run before Christmas, horrendous injuries and a paper thin squad.

 

[Nymzee]

Still seething about the United game and where we could have ended up with that win.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Still seething about the United game and where we could have ended up with that win.

I've been thinking that for quite a few seasons since about 07/08. There's always a case to be made of if we'd just held on here or there we'd be top 4. If we had a better Derby record we'd have finished ahead of Liverpool more times certainly. The fact is though they never do it. Every single fan and player on either side during that United game knew full well we wouldn't hold on. Years of ingrained mentality. You need to get winners in to break the duck just once and then the problem would be solved.

 

[davek]

We have done really well to be where we are with the squad as it currently stands.
The injuries to Bolasie, Coleman and Funes Mori have gutted the squad which was already paper thin after the deadwood was moved on in January.

Only one of those injuries came early enough in the season to be meaningful...and even that one could be said to have helped the situation by clarifying a game plan other than booting it long and downfield to Bolasie.

We were fortunate with injuries and suspensions this season. That's the truth of the matter.

We have come to accept it as usual, but the number of young academy players in the team and on the bench on matchday is amazing and limiting at the same time.
Holgate, Davies, Lookmam, Pennington, Calvert-Lewin, Kenny and Williams are involved most weeks and as good as they are they cannot be expected to push us into a top four battle.

Seventh is about right for us this season and the summer will tell us if the ambition is really there to push on to challenge for the top four.
Top four is far from impossible next season. We are not far from it at the moment after a desperately poor run before Christmas, horrendous injuries and a paper thin squad.

I question the standard of these players. We can have twice the number of youngsters getting first team game time but IMO there is no standout breakthrough talent other than Davies, and to be honest that lad will never be top class either.

far better to have one or two start to come through who are going to be key for the progression of the club.

 

[gonetomorrow]

It's home and away. Chalk and cheese.

 

[willo30]

I question the standard of these players. We can have twice the number of youngsters getting first team game time but IMO there is no standout breakthrough talent other than Davies, and to be honest that lad will never be top class either.

far better to have one or two start to come through who are going to be key for the progression of the club.

I've said this a few times you don't get a load of youngsters coming through at once. It's happened once in my lifetime at Man Utd and I wouldn't expect it again. History tells not many make it. Last 15 years for us we have had Osman, Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley and now maybe Davies. That's about one every 3 years if we are lucky.

 

[orly]

It's home and away. Chalk and cheese.

My favourite is blue chalk and mayonnaise on ciabatta mmmm

 

[davek]

I've said this a few times you don't get a load of youngsters coming through at once. It's happened once in my lifetime at Man Utd and I wouldn't expect it again. History tells not many make it. Last 15 years for us we have had Osman, Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley and now maybe Davies. That's about one every 3 years if we are lucky.

...and out of them only Rooney and Barkley are true stand out talents. That's not to say lesser talents cant play a role, but I'd rather we kept introducing players like Dowell and see what they can offer. Imo out of those I've seen Dowell has something special - a bit out the ordinary.

 

[COYBL25]

I've said this a few times you don't get a load of youngsters coming through at once. It's happened once in my lifetime at Man Utd and I wouldn't expect it again. History tells not many make it. Last 15 years for us we have had Osman, Rooney, Rodwell, Barkley and now maybe Davies. That's about one every 3 years if we are lucky.

I'd take Roswell and the Osman out of that equation, as one is the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz man and the other is a Kopite grass.

 

[maccavennie]

Here's a thought: first half of the season away from home we picked up 10 points on the road; so far, with two to play away, we have 6 points from our away games in the second half of the season. First half/second half of the season may not an arbitrary choice to make a distinction about as it pretty much chimed in with a change of play and fortunes (certainly at home when we doubled our wins from 4 to currently 8 first half compared to second half of the season). My guess is we've regressed away from Goodison (or certainly not advanced as the season wore on) because the game plan changed from quick long balls out wide and downfield to Bolasie/Lukaku and that was a way of playing that was more fruitful in terms of catching home teams out and picking up more points (although we did lose more away games in the first half of the season than second half we went for the counter more and acquired more points). In short: away from home we may have become too ponderous and overthink our moves...which is a falling back into old ways in previous seasons when we dominated possession but didn't kill teams off.

A balance has to be struck away from home, and we either have to mix it up more in-game or choose more wisely the game plan we go with in terms of direct or patient build up.

all good points Dave and I think Koeman will be as frustrated as anyone with our away form. I think we will see a big shift next season where we become a lot more aggressive away from home and really look to take the game to the opposition.

Apart from the odd away win, I've always felt our side have been timid away from home going on 25 years now, just like we have a mental block against the so called big teams away I believe we just have a mental block full stop on away games. So many games over the years where we literally just haven't turned up and about 8/9 players just don't seem up to it.

 

[bluestevon]

Here's a thought: first half of the season away from home we picked up 10 points on the road; so far, with two to play away, we have 6 points from our away games in the second half of the season. First half/second half of the season may not an arbitrary choice to make a distinction about as it pretty much chimed in with a change of play and fortunes (certainly at home when we doubled our wins from 4 to currently 8 first half compared to second half of the season). My guess is we've regressed away from Goodison (or certainly not advanced as the season wore on) because the game plan changed from quick long balls out wide and downfield to Bolasie/Lukaku and that was a way of playing that was more fruitful in terms of catching home teams out and picking up more points (although we did lose more away games in the first half of the season than second half we went for the counter more and acquired more points). In short: away from home we may have become too ponderous and overthink our moves...which is a falling back into old ways in previous seasons when we dominated possession but didn't kill teams off.

A balance has to be struck away from home, and we either have to mix it up more in-game or choose more wisely the game plan we go with in terms of direct or patient build up.

All fair points Dave, one thing is for sure, whilst we have found a system and way of playing at home that is producing results (and by and large entertaining performances as well), away from home it looks like we are just blindly trying various things and personnel and hoping that something works.

We lack the ability to set up as a counter attacking team - because basically if Ross or Rom (or both) have an off day, then we have absolutely no one in the team to provide threat on the break (especially now that Mirallas hammies have cost him the pace he used to have), we aren't good enough technically throughout the team to just go and dominate the game on the front foot away from home, and we are too slow at the back to press from the front with a high line.

To play any of those ways will need us to go out and get 3-4 players who can facilitate that system.

For us going forward now, hope we just decide to give a couple of the more promising young players a good look at in the remaining games, especially Kenny

Come the summer we badly need to rebuild the entire defence, and add pace throughout the squad, and someone who can actually get on the ball and link up between midfield and Lukaku