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Confirmed Signing Abdoulaye Doucouré

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Neiler said:
Don’t be to ruled by stats last, Football is a team game, often influenced by blend, combinations and what that enables.

Looking at stats is useful, but you are looking at a player in isolation, think Peter Reid or Lee Carsley I’m pretty sure they weren’t stat demons before we signed them and yet both enabled so much in a team.
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This. Stats can only go so far. Off ball movement, on ball movement, pass selection etc etc. No stats can cover these as each team set up & game ethos is different across the board.
 
I’d be happy if we got him. We were just so laboured last season. Only Digne and to a degree Coleman accelerated into challenges. And we always lost second balls. Doucouré and Allan combined with Richy, Walcott, DCL and the fullbacks change us into a mobile athletic team.
 
Neiler said:
Don’t be to ruled by stats last, Football is a team game, often influenced by blend, combinations and what that enables.

Looking at stats is useful, but you are looking at a player in isolation, think Peter Reid or Lee Carsley I’m pretty sure they weren’t stat demons before we signed them and yet both enabled so much in a team.

Equally the only stats available are those directly measurable, how do you measure efficacy in holding space, position or enabling a system or the in general I’m not taking on that monster and I’ll pass it on sideways.
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I could be wrong but weren't the only stats in the 80s goals and clean sheets? I know people don't like them but it isn't exactly the same now.
 

TheBigIguana said:
I could be wrong but weren't the only stats in the 80s goals and clean sheets? I know people don't like them but it isn't exactly the same now.
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I wouldn’t think so myself, I don’t think stats are contemporary really, I think fans just have access to them now, through websites. I’ve taken statistical football games seriously over the years for big money on occasion and looked at various forms, incarnations, methods, samples and frames. The learning really is there is no stat that rules them all, you can also use stats to justify any point of view, they also exist in isolation, yet football is a team game, they don’t take into account football as a subjective game nor environmental factors, because football essentially is inequitable and subjective. The most dangerous thing about stats in confirmation bias, you really need to mistrust stats to make them useful if you are using them to be productive.

For example Fabian Delph, probably has decent stats for City, they are probably dire for us. Nathan Akes stats will probably improve on getting shafted every week at Bournemouth. Would Doucoure stats improve with better players then the poor fare at Watford, seems Carlo and Brands think so.

Stats are useful of course, but only part of the picture, I wouldn’t stress about them. Gylfi was one of the most productive attacking midfielders in PL for goals and assists at Swansea less so here.
 
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Neiler said:
I wouldn’t think so myself, I don’t think stats are contemporary really, I think fans just have access to them now, through websites. I’ve taken statistical games seriously over the years for big money on occasion and looked at various forms, incarnations, methods, samples and frames. The learning really is there is no stat that rules them all, you can also use stats to justify any point of view, they also exist in isolation, they don’t take into account football as a subjective game nor environmental factors, because football essentially is inequitable and subjective. The most dangerous thing about stats in confirmation bias, you really need to mistrust stats to make them useful if you are using them to be productive.

For example Fabian Delph, probably has decent stats for City, they are probably dire for us. Nathan Akes stats will probably improve on getting shafted every week at Bournemouth. Would Doucoure stats improve with better players then the poor fare at Watford, seems Carlo and Brands think so.

Stats are useful of course, but only part of the picture, I wouldn’t stress about them. Gylfi was one of the most productive attacking midfielders in PL for goals and assists at Swansea less so here.
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They have tried to work on these things believe it or not. It's why for example they don't just say Doucoure won x tackles and whoever only won x so Doucoure is better. At a minimum good stats will adjust for things like playing time, amount of possession, where on the field the player is actually doing things and other sorts of issues. No it still isn't perfect.

I just thought it was a bit disingenuous to bring up Reid when the kinds of things used to measure midfielders now didn't even exist 15 years ago much less 35. It's an evolving thing with more and more use each year to the point now that not incorporating some kind of analysis into your player evaluation and tactical planning will leave you lagging behind at least a little.
 
TheBigIguana said:
They have tried to work on these things believe it or not. It's why for example they don't just say Doucoure won x tackles and whoever only won x so Doucoure is better. At a minimum good stats will adjust for things like playing time, amount of possession, where on the field the player is actually doing things and other sorts of issues. No it still isn't perfect.

I just thought it was a bit disingenuous to bring up Reid when the kinds of things used to measure midfielders now didn't even exist 15 years ago much less 35. It's an evolving thing with more and more use each year to the point now that not incorporating some kind of analysis into your player evaluation and tactical planning will leave you lagging behind at least a little.
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Opta is around since the early 90s mate, that really brought stats into the public domain and narrative and stats were around well before it. History is littered with historical managers different take on it and applying it, in some shape or form, I thought it was a bit silly to say the only stats around were ones used for clean sheets etc, I actually find modern stats a bit dumbed down and well open to rebuttle.

Take tackles attempted and tackles won, if you play for Watford and you get munted every week the frequency of tackles you are trying will be high, with increased frequency, the higher the probability of failure. Then you might have Fernandinho at City, City might hold pocession for 80% of play, he might make 10 tackles in ten games, wins seven and has a 70% success rate. That’s before you look at comparisons of quality of team mates as a variable.

Also what the stats won’t tell you is that City will play with a midfield five, while Watford play with a two, that the subjective and environmental context piece.

Stats are inherently flawed because you can’t compare like for like, Football is inequitable, subjective, has different contexts, frequencies and varibles.

Im not polarised I find stats useful and i use them at times to inform, but I’m open minded and experienced to know they aren’t even 20% of an overall picture.
 
Neiler said:
I wouldn’t think so myself, I don’t think stats are contemporary really, I think fans just have access to them now, through websites. I’ve taken statistical football games seriously over the years for big money on occasion and looked at various forms, incarnations, methods, samples and frames. The learning really is there is no stat that rules them all, you can also use stats to justify any point of view, they also exist in isolation, yet football is a team game, they don’t take into account football as a subjective game nor environmental factors, because football essentially is inequitable and subjective. The most dangerous thing about stats in confirmation bias, you really need to mistrust stats to make them useful if you are using them to be productive.

For example Fabian Delph, probably has decent stats for City, they are probably dire for us. Nathan Akes stats will probably improve on getting shafted every week at Bournemouth. Would Doucoure stats improve with better players then the poor fare at Watford, seems Carlo and Brands think so.

Stats are useful of course, but only part of the picture, I wouldn’t stress about them. Gylfi was one of the most productive attacking midfielders in PL for goals and assists at Swansea less so here.
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It's funny, I look at stats a fair bit but I much prefer to judge a player by my eye test.

I don't think stats were enormously prevalent in the 80's, you'd have probably gone on eye test, get a scout to watch them lots, comments made by existing players or people you knew in the game etc.

I think stats can help frame a player. I saw some earlier that put Doucoure above average for carrying the ball, top 10% in his position for pressuring, and below average for all else. But he was playing as a number 10, in a poor team, with 4 different managers. So what allowances do you make?

There are things stats I don't think can ever tell you. Character for one. Also how they react in situations. If you watch a game, you quickly get an idea of who is the key player judging by how others around treat them.

I like Doucoure having watched him anyway. He's big and powerful and can do a bit of everything.
 

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