An inconvenient truth

[the sniderman]

What he said snidey.

thank u degsy v helpful.

 

[Alanbileysfeathercut]

We cant /don't coach players.
They come here and that's their "education" finished.

 

[Zatara]

The inconvenient truth is that Koeman, Allardyce, and Silva probably had this group of players over performing. Before everyone dies laughing, I’d say that what they did which was unforgivable is buy them in the first place, but once they were in the squad they’ve actually taken teams of players who are of such a low standard and managed to keep them in the league. That is the size of the task facing Ancelotti now. Going through the areas of the team and drawing comparisons with other premier league teams and historical Everton teams shows just how unbelievably poor quality these players are. For some reason though the fan base seems to think that they have some higher level they can go to and they could do it on a regular basis. I don’t actually think they do.

Pickford. I actually think he’s an ok prem keeper. One of the few players of premier league level in comparison to his peers.

Full backs. Seamus Coleman, Everton captain, hasn’t actually bothered to learn how to ever pass or cross a ball properly even with his one good foot. His pace has completely left him and he has no footballing brain whatsoever. No other team in the league would indulge him. None. He threw a throw in to an attacking opposition player. He can’t cross a football. If you froze all the opposition players and gave him all the time in the world he still couldn’t play a through ball or find a cross. I know the fans like him, but I’m not bothered anymore, he’s a league one standard full back at best and we have him as captain it’s a joke.

Baines is too slow and too old and could never defend anyway. Seriously he was good 6 years ago.

The truth is we have two ok full backs in Digne and Sidibe and that is it. Baines Coleman Kenny Martina, whatever they’ve done in the past, whatever they might do in the future, are currently trash and not good enough to be playing prem football.

Centrebacks: Michael Keane isn’t good enough for the premier league. He’s slow, can’t pass, lumbers around, weak in the air, slow to react. If you offered him in a swap only teams in the bottom three would be interested and even then I’m not even sure they would.

Yerry Mina is better in the air and on the deck but has massive limitations to his game in all the other areas. He’s also really slow and doesn’t anticipate danger.

I think Holgate is the best of the lot and he’s a short centreback with no pace. That says absolutely everything about the quality we have back there.

Apart from Digne (when he’s on form) I don’t think any premier league team would take any other player from our back line. In comparison to the players Moyes had of Jagielka, Lescott, Distin, peak Baines, Yobo, Heitinga. They are absolutely leagues away from that sort of quality, absolutely miles. Can you imagine any of our CBs playing LB like Lescott did with ease? They can’t even run!

Midfielders (excluding Gbamin and Gomes). Not a single premier league team would take any midfielder we had. I can’t think of a midfield two worse than Siggurdson and Schneiderlin in the whole football pyramid. Seriously, any midfield pairing at any professional level with an ounce of pace between them could utterly dominate these two (as a bunch of kids did on Sunday).

We all like Tom Davies but we need to grow up and realise he’s also too slow and is an average player who should be in the championship.

I think Delph is just about at the minimum standard expected of a prem midfielder which leaves us with one fit player in that position who might be good enough to play premier league.

Just to sum up how bad these two areas of the team are. Johnny Heitinga, World Cup finalist international centreback who was only good enough to sit on the bench for Everton behind Jags and Distin. If he was in this team, not only would he be our best defender by a billion light years, he’d also be our best midfielder!! He couldn’t even make the team in 2012 despite being player of the season the year before yet he would stroll into this side in any position he wanted to. That’s the quality drop we’re talking about.

Upfront and outwide we have really poor players. Calvert Lewin, Richarlison and Walcott can’t play football. If either of them manages a third touch of the ball it’s a miracle that they didn’t lose it with their second. They can’t play football, they can’t pass it, they can’t link together, they can’t dribble past anyone, they can’t finish. They’re basically three fast players who have a knack of getting into the box at the right time for a header or tap in (although Walcott doesn’t have that even). They can’t play football though. Compare them to Vardy, Jimenez, Rashford, Martial, Moura, Son. That’s not even the top level of forwards and they’re all miles better than what we have. Leicester have Demarai Gray and Iheanacho sat on their bench. They’d walk into our front line. Iwobi and Bernard have the opposite problem of playing football as if the goals don’t exist which is useless at premier league level. I won’t even mention Tosun and Niasse.

We have a defensive unit that is barely premier league standard, we have a midfield that due to injuries is the poorest in the league without a doubt and in my opinion one of the worst at any level of English football and we have a strike force that apart from chucking itself at high balls and making a nuisance of itself can’t actually play football.

I’m actually amazed that we didn’t go down in 17/18, genuinely amazed. Allardyce deserves all the stick he gets but how he kept that squad up I’ll genuinely never know. Some of the teams he put out were the poorest starting 11s I’ve ever seen in the premier league.

Pickford

Kenny Williams Mangala Martina

Siggurdson Schneiderlin McCarthy

Bolasie Tosun Calvert Lewin


How did we not go down?!

As a fan base I think we need to redefine immediate expectations. The price of players we’ve bought in, the length of the Moyes years having us at a certain standard, the recent likes of Lukaku Stones etc. has duped the fan base into thinking our natural level at a minimum is 7th. When you take a cold hard look at the players we have though and the quality of them our only aim should be to stay up. People will criticise me for saying this but this is not a top half squad, no way, not even close. You can take players from the teams in the bottom three and they walk into our team without question and they wouldn’t want many of ours in return.

Ancelloti has an absolutely huge job to do, successive managers have assembled some of the worst quality premier league squads of all time over the last few seasons and now we are paying the price for it. I’ve not even covered the players on loan who everyone unanimously agreed were far worse than the ones who are still here.

In my opinion Ancelotti actually has a bigger job on his hands than Moyes did when he came in. Moyes has a core of solid older pros and Rooney Osman and Hibbert coming through. He added in a couple of good buys and at least had an ok first 11. Ancelotti has about five players who might be premier league standard out of his whole squad. That’s it. He has to turf the rest out and somehow stockpile another 18 premier league standard players just to get a squad that might finish mid table!

My take on the players:

BACK FIVE
Pickford: Englands starting goalkeeper. No doubt there are better goalies around and he seems a bit of a nutter but lets remember hes still only 25. For a keeper thats the same as being a 20/21 year old outfield player in terms of longevity.

Kenny: Whether he's improved or not, hes a good player to have in the squad. Local lad, fits the homegrown criteria and an able backup player with a lot of heart and passion.

Holgate: Desperately needs to be coached to show him where to be positionally. Really needs 1-1 attention. No doubt now that hes a good player to have in the squad, wants to win and has a bit of snide.

Mina: Needs positional coaching and not to be playing the ball out from the back. Hes a physical monster and will be very handy against big opposition forwards.

Digne: Clearly a top player but this season hes been awful. Rumours of a massive Lyon bid for him last summer may have turned his head or that hes playing with an injury. Hopefully Carlo can get him back up to the same level as last season.

Thats on paper a back 5. However to have 2 players competing for a position we need 10 players and the rest of them arent good enough.


MIDFIELD

Gomes: Massively inconsistent and has suffered a terrible injury, should be classed as a squad player until he shows consistency.

Gbamin: Total unknown and has suffered an injury, squad player.

Davies: Getting to the point now where he leaves or improves. Hes a homegrown player and so worthwhile keeping him in the squad.

Iwobi: Hes a bit of an enigma, seems decent in the middle but average out wide. Another homegrown player and not old...its worthwhile to have him in the squad.

So we have 4 squad players there and need to sign 2 players of a much higher standard.


ATTACKERS

Bernard: Good on the left and seems to improve Digne. Almost zero goal threat but a good player to have in the squad.

Kean: Young 19 year old kid...keep him in the squad.

DCL: Homegrown player, could be on course for 15 over the season. A good player to have in the squad and hope he improves further.

Richarlison: our biggest threat and hardest worker. Carlo has to bring in top players to compliment his game and feed him chances.



On the face of it we have:

1 GK
4 DF
4 MF
4 FW

Thats 13 players who are worthwhile keeping around the squad.

We should aim for a 25 man squad, 3 keepers so we need 10 more outfield players of which 2 more must be homegrown.

The focus has to be on players in the u26 bracket (with my personal preference u23) to build the squad over the next 4 windows culminating with deadwood sold or in the final year of their contracts.

Its not as bad as it seems and the addition of five top players will see our fortunes change.

 

[Yarrgh]

My take on the players:

BACK FIVE
Pickford: Englands starting goalkeeper. No doubt there are better goalies around and he seems a bit of a nutter but lets remember hes still only 25. For a keeper thats the same as being a 20/21 year old outfield player in terms of longevity.

Kenny: Whether he's improved or not, hes a good player to have in the squad. Local lad, fits the homegrown criteria and an able backup player with a lot of heart and passion.

Holgate: Desperately needs to be coached to show him where to be positionally. Really needs 1-1 attention. No doubt now that hes a good player to have in the squad, wants to win and has a bit of snide.

Mina: Needs positional coaching and not to be playing the ball out from the back. Hes a physical monster and will be very handy against big opposition forwards.

Digne: Clearly a top player but this season hes been awful. Rumours of a massive Lyon bid for him last summer may have turned his head or that hes playing with an injury. Hopefully Carlo can get him back up to the same level as last season.

Thats on paper a back 5. However to have 2 players competing for a position we need 10 players and the rest of them arent good enough.


MIDFIELD

Gomes: Massively inconsistent and has suffered a terrible injury, should be classed as a squad player until he shows consistency.

Gbamin: Total unknown and has suffered an injury, squad player.

Davies: Getting to the point now where he leaves or improves. Hes a homegrown player and so worthwhile keeping him in the squad.

Iwobi: Hes a bit of an enigma, seems decent in the middle but average out wide. Another homegrown player and not old...its worthwhile to have him in the squad.

So we have 4 squad players there and need to sign 2 players of a much higher standard.


ATTACKERS

Bernard: Good on the left and seems to improve Digne. Almost zero goal threat but a good player to have in the squad.

Kean: Young 19 year old kid...keep him in the squad.

DCL: Homegrown player, could be on course for 15 over the season. A good player to have in the squad and hope he improves further.

Richarlison: our biggest threat and hardest worker. Carlo has to bring in top players to compliment his game and feed him chances.



On the face of it we have:

1 GK
4 DF
4 MF
4 FW

Thats 13 players who are worthwhile keeping around the squad.

We should aim for a 25 man squad, 3 keepers so we need 10 more outfield players of which 2 more must be homegrown.

The focus has to be on players in the u26 bracket (with my personal preference u23) to build the squad over the next 4 windows culminating with deadwood sold or in the final year of their contracts.

Its not as bad as it seems and the addition of five top players will see our fortunes change.

I think this post is spot on.

There's a way to make a team that is competitive in this league under the right manager. It might be limited, but it should do a job. Add in a few well chosen players into the team and all of a sudden the squad starts to look better and we should see improvements. If we can get 2 or 3 in this January (probably through 'creative' wheeling and dealing via the loan market) then Ancelotti may have a foundation to build on when we start next season.

Some of @Zatara 's 13 to keep around probably aren't the requisite quality in the long run, but they will do for the squad over the next couple of seasons. I hope that's a length of time that is sufficient for them to improve and make them indispensable. Time will tell. But 2-3 in January, 3-4 in summer and then 1 or 2 next January and another 3-4 the summer after. That's us competitive by the start of the 21/22 season if the transfers have a decent success rate. Yikes.

 

[Lelouch]

As a fan base I think we need to redefine immediate expectations. The price of players we’ve bought in, the length of the Moyes years having us at a certain standard, the recent likes of Lukaku Stones etc. has duped the fan base into thinking our natural level at a minimum is 7th. When you take a cold hard look at the players we have though and the quality of them our only aim should be to stay up. People will criticise me for saying this but this is not a top half squad, no way, not even close. You can take players from the teams in the bottom three and they walk into our team without question and they wouldn’t want many of ours in return.

Ancelloti has an absolutely huge job to do, successive managers have assembled some of the worst quality premier league squads of all time over the last few seasons and now we are paying the price for it. I’ve not even covered the players on loan who everyone unanimously agreed were far worse than the ones who are still here.

In my opinion Ancelotti actually has a bigger job on his hands than Moyes did when he came in. Moyes has a core of solid older pros and Rooney Osman and Hibbert coming through. He added in a couple of good buys and at least had an ok first 11. Ancelotti has about five players who might be premier league standard out of his whole squad. That’s it. He has to turf the rest out and somehow stockpile another 18 premier league standard players just to get a squad that might finish mid table!

Agreed we get too excited in the summer transfer window with shiny new signings and when it all doesn't work out we get frustrated, I've been guilty of it too.
Definitely do not agree with the second part this squad can comfortably finish top 10, The league is proper proper grim, There is only 10 point difference from 6th place Spurs to 18th placed Bournemouth, It's the worst the league has ever been at the minute and wins against your Newcastle and Burnley will have us top 10 quite easily.

 

[jazzy]

My take on the players:

BACK FIVE
Pickford: Englands starting goalkeeper. No doubt there are better goalies around and he seems a bit of a nutter but lets remember hes still only 25. For a keeper thats the same as being a 20/21 year old outfield player in terms of longevity.

Kenny: Whether he's improved or not, hes a good player to have in the squad. Local lad, fits the homegrown criteria and an able backup player with a lot of heart and passion.

Holgate: Desperately needs to be coached to show him where to be positionally. Really needs 1-1 attention. No doubt now that hes a good player to have in the squad, wants to win and has a bit of snide.

Mina: Needs positional coaching and not to be playing the ball out from the back. Hes a physical monster and will be very handy against big opposition forwards.

Digne: Clearly a top player but this season hes been awful. Rumours of a massive Lyon bid for him last summer may have turned his head or that hes playing with an injury. Hopefully Carlo can get him back up to the same level as last season.

Thats on paper a back 5. However to have 2 players competing for a position we need 10 players and the rest of them arent good enough.


MIDFIELD

Gomes: Massively inconsistent and has suffered a terrible injury, should be classed as a squad player until he shows consistency.

Gbamin: Total unknown and has suffered an injury, squad player.

Davies: Getting to the point now where he leaves or improves. Hes a homegrown player and so worthwhile keeping him in the squad.

Iwobi: Hes a bit of an enigma, seems decent in the middle but average out wide. Another homegrown player and not old...its worthwhile to have him in the squad.

So we have 4 squad players there and need to sign 2 players of a much higher standard.


ATTACKERS

Bernard: Good on the left and seems to improve Digne. Almost zero goal threat but a good player to have in the squad.

Kean: Young 19 year old kid...keep him in the squad.

DCL: Homegrown player, could be on course for 15 over the season. A good player to have in the squad and hope he improves further.

Richarlison: our biggest threat and hardest worker. Carlo has to bring in top players to compliment his game and feed him chances.



On the face of it we have:

1 GK
4 DF
4 MF
4 FW

Thats 13 players who are worthwhile keeping around the squad.

We should aim for a 25 man squad, 3 keepers so we need 10 more outfield players of which 2 more must be homegrown.

The focus has to be on players in the u26 bracket (with my personal preference u23) to build the squad over the next 4 windows culminating with deadwood sold or in the final year of their contracts.

Its not as bad as it seems and the addition of five top players will see our fortunes change.

I think I can get on board with most of not all of that Zat.
However your analysis seems to suggest that we have only 3 definite starters , Pickford Digne and Richarlison with the rest just being no better than squad players.
Probably about right and illustrates the extent of our problems

 

[Liamliverpool86]

harsh on baines .. i don't think he's done anything wrong in his appearances in fact hes been one of our best players in them games

just his body can't handle the games in succession

 

[Deleted member 38674]

do you seriously believe someone who couldn’t play football would be consistently picked by Brazil?.

 

[Deleted member 38674]

My take on the players......

Shorter version:

"It's not so bad..... we actually only need 12 new signings to be a decent team"

 

[Lanolin]

I just don't understand why people can't assess things reasonably. We're all guilty of saying things in the heat of the moment and i'm as guilty as anyone of the occasional lapse into hyperbole, but it just feels like so many fans veer wildly between extreme views. The OP argued with me in the summer when I said we hadn't recruited well and would do well to finish higher than 8th. He said the window couldn't be seen as anything other than a roaring success. 6 months later he's telling us we'll be lucky not to get relegated. It's ridiculous.

Seamus Coleman is now a below average PL full back. He would still get games for at least 10 teams in this league, absolutely no doubt about it. We can't just say he's dipped below the level we want though, we have to say he's league one standard. Richarlison can't just go down as a talented but frustrating player, we have to say he can't play football. It's utter rubbish, and an embarrassing post.

The OP says we have to 'grow up'. One of us does, for sure.

 

[14towestham]

Agree with alot of the posts apart from Richarlison.

He is a class operator who any top 6 club would take in their squad. Even when he is below par you can see his feet and movement are top draw.

Digne is the only other squad player any of the top 6 would consider signing and I doubt most would be interested at any price.

It shows how woeful recruitment has been for years. Shockingly bad value spent on substandard quality and even worse hundreds of millions
on playerd with nil leadership qualities between any of them.

 

[Deleted member 38674]

I just don't understand why people can't assess things reasonably. We're all guilty of saying things in the heat of the moment and i'm as guilty as anyone of the occasional lapse into hyperbole, but it just feels like so many fans veer wildly between extreme views. The OP argued with me in the summer when I said we hadn't recruited well and would do well to finish higher than 8th. He said the window couldn't be seen as anything other than a roaring success. 6 months later he's telling us we'll be lucky not to get relegated. It's ridiculous.

Seamus Coleman is now a below average PL full back. He would still get games for at least 10 teams in this league, absolutely no doubt about. We can't just say he's dipped below the level we ant though, we have to say he's league one standard. Richarlison can't just go down as a talented but frustrating player, we have to say he can't play football. It's utter rubbish, and an embarrassing post.

The OP says we have to 'grow up'. One of us does, for sure.

We now have a run of five, dare I say, 'winnable' games in the league.

Should we do just that, there will be several on here who will be falling over themselves to wax lyrical about the very players they are now condemning.

It's all subjective, of course, but Carlo has to decide if certain players are under performing, performing at their appropriate level, or even overperforming.

Was Digne overperforming last season and THIS is the real LD? Is Sigurdsson going through a bad spell and he needs a run of games to find his form again? Is this just the level that we can expect of Mina now?

In any case, I don't think anyone is under illusions that if we are to kick on and reach Europe at any point in the next 2 or 3 seasons, we'll need to recycle circa 50% of our existing squad with fresh blood - making many of our current 1st team no more than squad players.

Big task. Lot's of money needs to be spent (again), ambition needs to be shown and, for the love of god, we can't waste what's in the kitty this time.

 

[Lanolin]

We now have a run of five, dare I say, 'winnable' games in the league.

Should we do just that, there will be several on here who will be falling over themselves to wax lyrical about the very players they are now condemning.

It's all subjective, of course, but Carlo has to decide if certain players are under performing, performing at their appropriate level, or even overperforming.

Was Digne overperforming last season and THIS is the real LD? Is Sigurdsson going through a bad spell and he needs a run of games to find his form again? Is this just the level that we can expect of Mina now?

In any case, I don't think anyone is under illusions that if we are to kick on and reach Europe at any point in the next 2 or 3 seasons, we'll need to recycle circa 50% of our existing squad with fresh blood - making many of our current 1st team no more than squad players.

Big task. Lot's of money needs to be spent (again), ambition needs to be shown and, for the love of god, we can't waste what's in the kitty this time.

Yep, agree with that. If we're going to finish top 6 i'd say a maximum of 7 of our current squad can continue to be regular starters. That's giving the benefit to Gbamin and Kean because i'm feeling kind. Obviously more of them will have to stay as squad players, but that's fairly standard. A couple of good acquisitions in the right areas changes the way team looks massively. They have to be genuine quality though.

 

[Gaffa]

I do tend to agree with a lot of the initial post. Just a couple of things.

Kenny I would like to see recalled and given a run till the end of the season. We cant judge this lad on a few games
Digne and Rich need to pick up their games. Rich gets away with it from us all because he scores the odd goal and does a chicken celebration. Where was he Sunday?
Kean needs a run of games but I currently have reservations about him
Mina is horrendous. He cant head, how many chances has he missed from corners this season

 

[Zatara]

I think this post is spot on.

There's a way to make a team that is competitive in this league under the right manager. It might be limited, but it should do a job. Add in a few well chosen players into the team and all of a sudden the squad starts to look better and we should see improvements. If we can get 2 or 3 in this January (probably through 'creative' wheeling and dealing via the loan market) then Ancelotti may have a foundation to build on when we start next season.

Some of @Zatara 's 13 to keep around probably aren't the requisite quality in the long run, but they will do for the squad over the next couple of seasons. I hope that's a length of time that is sufficient for them to improve and make them indispensable. Time will tell. But 2-3 in January, 3-4 in summer and then 1 or 2 next January and another 3-4 the summer after. That's us competitive by the start of the 21/22 season if the transfers have a decent success rate. Yikes.

Its not so hard I think for Ancelotti/Brands..

Jan 2020 2 signings
Summer 2020 3 signings
Jan 2021 2 signings
Summer 2021 3 signings

Assignment complete.

I think I can get on board with most of not all of that Zat.
However your analysis seems to suggest that we have only 3 definite starters , Pickford Digne and Richarlison with the rest just being no better than squad players.
Probably about right and illustrates the extent of our problems

Im taking it more as a numbers game...theyre all capable of starting over this and next season at least.

Shorter version:

"It's not so bad..... we actually only need 12 new signings to be a decent team"

Not when you add in the 2 backup keepers...10 players over 4 windows.

It should be easily achievable.