An inconvenient truth

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Interestingly Oliver Kay in The Athletic has just been talking about this (our signings) and has (in my opinion) taken the correct, alternative view.

Pickford - England's number 1 keeper (in-waiting when we signed him)
Coleman - over 300 appearances
Mina - Columbian international. Great world cup. Plays for Barcelona which is typically a decent endorsement.
Keane - Just played in nearly all of England's WC qualifiers. Ahead of Gomez, Stones etc. Was on the back of a very strong season at Burnley.
Digne - French international. PSG, Roma (I think?) and Barcelona on his CV
Sigurdssen - together with Llorente defied all odds to keep Swansea in the PL.
Walcott - 100 PL goals
Tosun - CL experience. Turkey international.
Iwobi - CL experience. PL experience. Nigeria international.
DCL - 10 goals in all competitions this season.
Bernard - WC winner. Copa Libert' winner. CL experience at Shak.
Andre Gomes - Did he win the Euros with Portugal? Can't remember. Barcelona for a year after he was fantastic at Valencia. CL experience.
Gbamin - Heir apparent to Gueye. Instantly injured.
Schneiderlin - CL experience. French international.
Davies - academy prospect (that's all i've got, sorry Tom).
Moise Kean - 8 goals in 16 for Juve last year? Italy international. Juve on his CV.
Richarlison - 35m rising to 50m. Our best player.
Sidibe - WC Winner.


That's as many as I can remember / be arsed typing. That's NOT a squad that on paper should be anywhere near the bottom 6, 7..not even in the bottom half. It's packed full of individual quality.

The issues are balance and the players compatibility with each other. and injuries.

King Carlo will sort this but we need a lot of sales, most will be at a huge loss.

The fact that players have played for their country is not defining. Loads of players get capped by their country nowadays due to the sheer number of games, it's barely a feat to be 'capped by England' look at half of the no-marks that have. It's the same for Colombia, Turkey, France, Nigeria, Brazil etc.

FWIW, Bernard has not won a World Cup and hasn't kicked a ball for Brazil in 6 years - but even if he had, he can still be garbage (Jo syndrome).

Playing for Barcelona doesn't mean you're an excellent player - Geovanni (later of Hull) Rochemback (later of Boro), Song (once of Arsenal) and Keirrison, the list goes on.

Having played in the Champions League also does not make someone an excellent player as many fairly ordinary players have - including the likes of Steve Sidwell, Alan Hutton, Andros Townsend, Joe Allen, Rickie Lambert.

It doesn't make Sidibe an excellent player that he was on the bench at a World Cup where his country did well - see Diomede, Guivarch, Kleberson, Barone, Mustafi,

These 'achievements' don't make these good players. By and large, they aren't good players. If you have an agenda to push (as Kay does) then you'd be contrarian and say that this Everton squad are actually far better than what they're showing. Why? - Because that makes good reading on a paid subscription service, it goes against the popular narrative.

Now I don't think we're as terrible as we showed the other day, but I'd also say the team finishing around about where it is now in the league wouldn't be a case of it 'massively underperforming' either.
 
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The fact that players have played for their country is not defining. Loads of players get capped by their country nowadays due to the sheer number of games, it's barely a feat to be 'capped by England' look at half of the no-marks that have. It's the same for Colombia, Turkey, France, Nigeria, Brazil etc.

FWIW, Bernard has not won a World Cup and hasn't kicked a ball for Brazil in 6 years - but even if he had, he can still be garbage (Jo syndrome).

Playing for Barcelona doesn't mean you're an excellent player - Geovanni (later of Hull) Rochemback (later of Boro), Song (once of Arsenal) and Keirrison, the list goes on.

Having played in the Champions League also does not make someone an excellent player as many fairly ordinary players have - including the likes of Steve Sidwell, Alan Hutton, Andros Townsend, Joe Allen, Rickie Lambert.

It doesn't make Sidibe an excellent player that he was on the bench at a World Cup where his country did well - see Diomede, Guivarch, Kleberson, Barone, Mustafi,

These 'achievements' don't make these good players. By and large, they aren't good players. If you have an agenda to push (as Kay does) then you'd be contrarian and say that this Everton squad are actually far better than what they're showing. Why? - Because that makes good reading on a paid subscription service, it goes against the popular narrative.

Now I don't think we're as terrible as we showed the other day, but I'd also say the team finishing around about where it is now in the league wouldn't be a case of it 'massively underperforming' either.

Hmm

Firstly of all, i'm not sure of the merits behind your view of why a writer would have a stance but let's not go into that.

My apologies on Bernard, he must be a WC participator and i've mis-remembered.

The point is not whether there are exceptions to the loose rules i've set out, you listing those are the epitome of what it means to be contrarian. Instead, the point being made is are these players those which Everton should be looking to attract given where we are and have been.

For example, bringing in Andre Gomes on a season-long loan only a short time after he lit up La Liga for Valencia and Barcelona splashed the big bucks could and should be considered astute. To then get him here for circa £23m is again very astute. He improves us. His quality advances the amount of quality we have in our team.

You can go through quite a lot of the signings and make good cases for each.

The fact they've been thrown together and it doesn't work doesn't make them bad players.
 
For example, bringing in Andre Gomes on a season-long loan only a short time after he lit up La Liga for Valencia and Barcelona splashed the big bucks could and should be considered astute. To then get him here for circa £23m is again very astute. He improves us. His quality advances the amount of quality we have in our team.

You can go through quite a lot of the signings and make good cases for each.

But this is all subjective. Many don't particularly rate Gomes, myself included.

Digne is a prime example of a player who you could make a case for being a very decent signing. You can also make a case for him being a fairly poor signing.

It really depends on where you stand and, as I say, everyone is different. But on here, most people have no reason to embellish, exaggerate or inflame. We gain nothing from it.

My point about Kay is that it's his job to engage and attract. It's not always the case that he's expressing his actually held personal view, the same goes for all writers, pundits and anyone on TalkSPORT. They will say whatever they need to say to get what fuels them, readers, listeners, viewers, social media buzz. They held a full discussion on TalkSPORT after the Southampton game in November about Davies being better than Gerrard - prompted loads of calls, tweets and articles.

Paid WUMs, the lot of them. It's mostly bait, don't fall for it.
 
But this is all subjective. Many don't particularly rate Gomes, myself included.

Digne is a prime example of a player who you could make a case for being a very decent signing. You can also make a case for him being a fairly poor signing.

It really depends on where you stand and, as I say, everyone is different. But on here, most people have no reason to embellish, exaggerate or inflame. We gain nothing from it.

My point about Kay is that it's his job to engage and attract. It's not always the case that he's expressing his actually held personal view, the same goes for all writers, pundits and anyone on TalkSPORT. They will say whatever they need to say to get what fuels them, readers, listeners, viewers, social media buzz. They held a full discussion on TalkSPORT after the Southampton game in November about Davies being better than Gerrard - prompted loads of calls, tweets and articles.

Paid WUMs, the lot of them. It's mostly bait, don't fall for it.

For what mate? the debate? isn't that what we are doing right now?
 

I was speaking more generally, mate.
Well i'm glad i've got you looking out for me pal.

i'll reiterate my stance, we've got some very good players. We need a manager that can find a good balance for some of them, ship out others and bring in some fresh blood.

Happy to keep:

Pickford
Mina
Digne
Holgate (bench)
Coleman (bench)
Sidibe
Richy
Davies (bench)
Iwobi
Delph
Gomes
Gbamin (I guess, need to see more of him)
Bernard
Kean
DCL

Ship out Walcott, Schneiderlin, Tosun, Niasse, Martina.

Jury is out on Sig. V good season last year, terrible this year. Same for Keane.

We need 3 or 4 in the right positions, for the right system with the right manager.
 
Hmm

Firstly of all, i'm not sure of the merits behind your view of why a writer would have a stance but let's not go into that.

My apologies on Bernard, he must be a WC participator and i've mis-remembered.

The point is not whether there are exceptions to the loose rules i've set out, you listing those are the epitome of what it means to be contrarian. Instead, the point being made is are these players those which Everton should be looking to attract given where we are and have been.

For example, bringing in Andre Gomes on a season-long loan only a short time after he lit up La Liga for Valencia and Barcelona splashed the big bucks could and should be considered astute. To then get him here for circa £23m is again very astute. He improves us. His quality advances the amount of quality we have in our team.

You can go through quite a lot of the signings and make good cases for each.

The fact they've been thrown together and it doesn't work doesn't make them bad players.
Gomes is considered one of Barcelona's worst signings ever. He was seen as completely useless. He has his qualities, and lifts the Everton team when he has the day. But he is no outstanding player, if we measure him against the best in his position. Ghana, on the other hand, is one of the best in his role and position, and he came from Aston Villa.
 
To be competitive around the top 7, now Leicester are seemingly amongst the pack.

Around the top 7 or IN the top 7? Like 8th is “around” the top 7 but it’s still out of Europe and we could yet get that after the disaster of this season.

So 3 or 4 players to be at Leicester’s level?

Do you have an idea of the calibre of 3-4 players you’re talking about? I’m curious because, for me, Leicester beat us all over the pitch, man for man, aside from Rico.

Those 3-4 would have to be big players. We’d likely have to break our transfer record a couple of times to push us up there, in truth.
 

The inconvenient truth is that Koeman, Allardyce, and Silva probably had this group of players over performing. Before everyone dies laughing, I’d say that what they did which was unforgivable is buy them in the first place, but once they were in the squad they’ve actually taken teams of players who are of such a low standard and managed to keep them in the league. That is the size of the task facing Ancelotti now. Going through the areas of the team and drawing comparisons with other premier league teams and historical Everton teams shows just how unbelievably poor quality these players are. For some reason though the fan base seems to think that they have some higher level they can go to and they could do it on a regular basis. I don’t actually think they do.

Pickford. I actually think he’s an ok prem keeper. One of the few players of premier league level in comparison to his peers.

Full backs. Seamus Coleman, Everton captain, hasn’t actually bothered to learn how to ever pass or cross a ball properly even with his one good foot. His pace has completely left him and he has no footballing brain whatsoever. No other team in the league would indulge him. None. He threw a throw in to an attacking opposition player. He can’t cross a football. If you froze all the opposition players and gave him all the time in the world he still couldn’t play a through ball or find a cross. I know the fans like him, but I’m not bothered anymore, he’s a league one standard full back at best and we have him as captain it’s a joke.

Baines is too slow and too old and could never defend anyway. Seriously he was good 6 years ago.

The truth is we have two ok full backs in Digne and Sidibe and that is it. Baines Coleman Kenny Martina, whatever they’ve done in the past, whatever they might do in the future, are currently trash and not good enough to be playing prem football.

Centrebacks: Michael Keane isn’t good enough for the premier league. He’s slow, can’t pass, lumbers around, weak in the air, slow to react. If you offered him in a swap only teams in the bottom three would be interested and even then I’m not even sure they would.

Yerry Mina is better in the air and on the deck but has massive limitations to his game in all the other areas. He’s also really slow and doesn’t anticipate danger.

I think Holgate is the best of the lot and he’s a short centreback with no pace. That says absolutely everything about the quality we have back there.

Apart from Digne (when he’s on form) I don’t think any premier league team would take any other player from our back line. In comparison to the players Moyes had of Jagielka, Lescott, Distin, peak Baines, Yobo, Heitinga. They are absolutely leagues away from that sort of quality, absolutely miles. Can you imagine any of our CBs playing LB like Lescott did with ease? They can’t even run!

Midfielders (excluding Gbamin and Gomes). Not a single premier league team would take any midfielder we had. I can’t think of a midfield two worse than Siggurdson and Schneiderlin in the whole football pyramid. Seriously, any midfield pairing at any professional level with an ounce of pace between them could utterly dominate these two (as a bunch of kids did on Sunday).

We all like Tom Davies but we need to grow up and realise he’s also too slow and is an average player who should be in the championship.

I think Delph is just about at the minimum standard expected of a prem midfielder which leaves us with one fit player in that position who might be good enough to play premier league.

Just to sum up how bad these two areas of the team are. Johnny Heitinga, World Cup finalist international centreback who was only good enough to sit on the bench for Everton behind Jags and Distin. If he was in this team, not only would he be our best defender by a billion light years, he’d also be our best midfielder!! He couldn’t even make the team in 2012 despite being player of the season the year before yet he would stroll into this side in any position he wanted to. That’s the quality drop we’re talking about.

Upfront and outwide we have really poor players. Calvert Lewin, Richarlison and Walcott can’t play football. If either of them manages a third touch of the ball it’s a miracle that they didn’t lose it with their second. They can’t play football, they can’t pass it, they can’t link together, they can’t dribble past anyone, they can’t finish. They’re basically three fast players who have a knack of getting into the box at the right time for a header or tap in (although Walcott doesn’t have that even). They can’t play football though. Compare them to Vardy, Jimenez, Rashford, Martial, Moura, Son. That’s not even the top level of forwards and they’re all miles better than what we have. Leicester have Demarai Gray and Iheanacho sat on their bench. They’d walk into our front line. Iwobi and Bernard have the opposite problem of playing football as if the goals don’t exist which is useless at premier league level. I won’t even mention Tosun and Niasse.

We have a defensive unit that is barely premier league standard, we have a midfield that due to injuries is the poorest in the league without a doubt and in my opinion one of the worst at any level of English football and we have a strike force that apart from chucking itself at high balls and making a nuisance of itself can’t actually play football.

I’m actually amazed that we didn’t go down in 17/18, genuinely amazed. Allardyce deserves all the stick he gets but how he kept that squad up I’ll genuinely never know. Some of the teams he put out were the poorest starting 11s I’ve ever seen in the premier league.

Pickford

Kenny Williams Mangala Martina

Siggurdson Schneiderlin McCarthy

Bolasie Tosun Calvert Lewin


How did we not go down?!

As a fan base I think we need to redefine immediate expectations. The price of players we’ve bought in, the length of the Moyes years having us at a certain standard, the recent likes of Lukaku Stones etc. has duped the fan base into thinking our natural level at a minimum is 7th. When you take a cold hard look at the players we have though and the quality of them our only aim should be to stay up. People will criticise me for saying this but this is not a top half squad, no way, not even close. You can take players from the teams in the bottom three and they walk into our team without question and they wouldn’t want many of ours in return.

Ancelloti has an absolutely huge job to do, successive managers have assembled some of the worst quality premier league squads of all time over the last few seasons and now we are paying the price for it. I’ve not even covered the players on loan who everyone unanimously agreed were far worse than the ones who are still here.

In my opinion Ancelotti actually has a bigger job on his hands than Moyes did when he came in. Moyes has a core of solid older pros and Rooney Osman and Hibbert coming through. He added in a couple of good buys and at least had an ok first 11. Ancelotti has about five players who might be premier league standard out of his whole squad. That’s it. He has to turf the rest out and somehow stockpile another 18 premier league standard players just to get a squad that might finish mid table!
Spot on - you forgot to also mention Kean, he is also turd
 
You can go through quite a lot of the signings and make good cases for each.

The fact they've been thrown together and it doesn't work doesn't make them bad players.

True, but you could equally go through the signings and make the case for the prosecution. To take your example of Gomes for instance:

For example, bringing in Andre Gomes on a season-long loan only a short time after he lit up La Liga for Valencia and Barcelona splashed the big bucks could and should be considered astute. To then get him here for circa £23m is again very astute. He improves us. His quality advances the amount of quality we have in our team.

It's possible to think of the fee Barca paid Valencia and think that it's a bargain signing, but it's also pertinent to acknowledge that he struggled at Barca and it wasn't considered a successful transfer. That transfer fee also doesn't take into account the very high wages that were also required to make the deal happen.

Kay is right to point out the positives, but there's also question marks about many of these players. Better to acknowledge the rough with the smooth.
 
True, but you could equally go through the signings and make the case for the prosecution. To take your example of Gomes for instance:



It's possible to think of the fee Barca paid Valencia and think that it's a bargain signing, but it's also pertinent to acknowledge that he struggled at Barca and it wasn't considered a successful transfer. That transfer fee also doesn't take into account the very high wages that were also required to make the deal happen.

Kay is right to point out the positives, but there's also question marks about many of these players. Better to acknowledge the rough with the smooth.
Yep, very fair mate
 
Around the top 7 or IN the top 7? Like 8th is “around” the top 7 but it’s still out of Europe and we could yet get that after the disaster of this season.

So 3 or 4 players to be at Leicester’s level?

Do you have an idea of the calibre of 3-4 players you’re talking about? I’m curious because, for me, Leicester beat us all over the pitch, man for man, aside from Rico.

Those 3-4 would have to be big players. We’d likely have to break our transfer record a couple of times to push us up there, in truth.
I may be wrong but I can't imagine you were saying the same at the beginning of the season.

Pickford, Digne, Mina, Keane, Gomes, Sig, Bernard, Richy... All names that, based on last season's performances, would have had arguments to say they were better than their Leicester counterparts.

Fast forward to January 2020 and Leicester have found a winning formula. The one we had from our 17 day break last has been well and truly lost.

It's revisionism to go back and say "well we all knew Leicester had better players in the summer". Certainly to the degree that the majority would think that.

You may have as you're quite anti-current Everton, which isn't a criticism.
 
I may be wrong but I can't imagine you were saying the same at the beginning of the season.

Pickford, Digne, Mina, Keane, Gomes, Sig, Bernard, Richy... All names that, based on last season's performances, would have had arguments to say they were better than their Leicester counterparts.

Fast forward to January 2020 and Leicester have found a winning formula. The one we had from our 17 day break last has been well and truly lost.

It's revisionism to go back and say "well we all knew Leicester had better players in the summer". Certainly to the degree that the majority would think that.

You may have as you're quite anti-current Everton, which isn't a criticism.

Leicester have a top centre back and a top striker.

It was obvious they'd be better than us. We have neither.
 

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