Andy Gray: Martinez Not Helping Lukaku

[Jacko93]

I'm lost now. I thought I had it, but nope...........

So, Is it cause Martinez is so good, that we are now so bad?

Or, is it cause Andy Gray spoke to Johnson?

I'm confused

 

[Huyton Layne]

I feel sorry for liverpool. They've had way more fixtures than us, travelled all over Europe, demoralized by get knocked out the CL and EL, have Sahko in defense, and are having another cup replay next month. Surely they're going down.

 

[davek]

@davek - your theory about travelling, tiredness, lack of planning time etc, somewhat dies on it's arse when you see that 5 out of our 6 league wins this season have been in the games either directly before or directly after a EL group game. The only fixture that you possibly argue that tiredness might have been a a factor was the CP home game after Wolfsburg home.

How would playing before a EL game lead to fatigue for that following league game? Odd observation.

Never mind all that, the accumulated effect of EL games and travelling and changing of mindset have to take their toll...or maybe you like to fly in the face of all known stats and anecdotal opinion on the subject from those involved in the juggling of domestic and European programmes? Yes, that'll be it: some character called Foot Long Hot Dog knows better than industry professionals.

Lol.

 

[davek]

I feel sorry for liverpool. They've had way more fixtures than us, travelled all over Europe, demoralized by get knocked out the CL and EL, have Sahko in defense, and are having another cup replay next month. Surely they're going down.

...and they also have players who cost £10M-£20M falling out of cupboards.

 

[MikeH72]

He's given too much credit to the players he has there by giving them a lot of space to play their way out of the poor form they were/are in. His Achilles heel for me is that he tends to believe he can adapt ANY player to do the job required at this club. I think that's folly, tbh. Maybe part of that attitude is due to the knowledge that massive funds aren't there to make major alterations, so he's given Kenwright some spiel about spending and he's sticking with the storyline. He's got to get real this summer. For me, Howard, Distin, Jagielka, Alcarez, Kone all have to be shown the door...and I'd ponder long and hard whether Naismith is worth keeping as a squad player.

He's got a big rebuilding job now. But if he's to play the way he wants to and the way we know is possible from him, he's got to be bold enough to a have a summer clearout.

But Dave, he's a key player. 4 year contract and constant smoke blown up his arse

 

[davek]

But Dave, he's a key player. 4 year contract and constant smoke blown up his arse

...which is why I'd consider getting rid, and advocate Martinez does.

He's only a key player because we haven't got that playmaker sorted out. Once that's done Naismith becomes pretty much superfluous.

 

[catcherintherye]

He's given too much credit to the players he has there by giving them a lot of space to play their way out of the poor form they were/are in. His Achilles heel for me is that he tends to believe he can adapt ANY player to do the job required at this club. I think that's folly, tbh. Maybe part of that attitude is due to the knowledge that massive funds aren't there to make major alterations, so he's given Kenwright some spiel about spending and he's sticking with the storyline. He's got to get real this summer. For me, Howard, Distin, Jagielka, Alcarez, Kone all have to be shown the door...and I'd ponder long and hard whether Naismith is worth keeping as a squad player.

He's got a big rebuilding job now. But if he's to play the way he wants to and the way we know is possible from him, he's got to be bold enough to a have a summer clearout.

Yes I think that's correct. Everything went his way last season. I suppose when that happens it gives you confidence (understandably) that you could turn your Osman's of this world into Iniesta. Part of it was probably because he had a far high calibre of player than at Wigan. This season has been an eye opener for all involved and in truth a needed eye opener.

Of the above I would agree regarding Distin and Howard. The problem with binning off Jagielka and Alcaraz is the exact problem you mention of lack of funds. It's why I think it will have to be a managed fazing out of these players. I'd also have to add Mirallas to the list as his attitude has been appalling and Peinaar should be moved on if someone will come in for him.

Naismith I would put into the Jagielka, Alcaraz, Barry etc category. In an ideal world he wouldn't get into our side. But at present, and realistic for the next year or two until we can acquire better younger players he has a role to play. I'd love nothing more than to go out and spend 60-70 million to make such players obsolete but this just won't happen. Naismith is going to be needed until Lukaku and Barkley are playing to potential and we probably get a decent back up for Lukaku sorted.

Obviously you want all 3 cb's to go. Do you think Browning and Galloway are ready to step in? Or do you see us signing 3 centre backs? I see us signing 1 Cb, letting Distin go and bring Galloway/Browning in, hopefully to slowly faze out the others.

 

[MikeH72]

...which is why I'd consider getting rid, and advocate Martinez does.

He's only a key player because we haven't got that playmaker sorted out. Once that's done Naismith becomes pretty much superfluous.

Martinez loves him. He sees something in him that simply isn't there. Do you not see how little things like this worry people?

 

[catcherintherye]

Martinez loves him. He sees something in him that simply isn't there. Do you not see how little things like this worry people?

Naismith is this teams Cahill or Carsley.

He does a brilliant job in a struggling team. But deep down we all knew, despite the above two being top pro's (what I'd give for either in our current team) if we have aspirations to build a top team they are rarely done with that type of player being central. If Barkley starts playing to potential it seems far hard to see where Naismith fits in. Up front, well it's the same argument with Lukaku. Left wing? Well hopefully we can get a creative player to play in their.

 

[TyphooToffee]

Ha Ha.

Everton great my arse. He was here a season.

Thanks for your contribution Gray, I'm sure the current playing staff are appreciative of you weighing in on their behalf at a point when they're trying to get shut of the manager.

I'm not having that. For a start he was here two seasons and was indeed a great player for the club, being key in winning the FA Cup in 1984 and the title and Cup Winners' Cup in 1985. He was the type of fearless player we could do with at the club now.

What a short memory you have.

 

[davek]

Yes I think that's correct. Everything went his way last season. I suppose when that happens it gives you confidence (understandably) that you could turn your Osman's of this world into Iniesta. Part of it was probably because he had a far high calibre of player than at Wigan. This season has been an eye opener for all involved and in truth a needed eye opener.

Of the above I would agree regarding Distin and Howard. The problem with binning off Jagielka and Alcaraz is the exact problem you mention of lack of funds. It's why I think it will have to be a managed fazing out of these players. I'd also have to add Mirallas to the list as his attitude has been appalling and Peinaar should be moved on if someone will come in for him.

Naismith I would put into the Jagielka, Alcaraz, Barry etc category. In an ideal world he wouldn't get into our side. But at present, and realistic for the next year or two until we can acquire better younger players he has a role to play. I'd love nothing more than to go out and spend 60-70 million to make such players obsolete but this just won't happen. Naismith is going to be needed until Lukaku and Barkley are playing to potential and we probably get a decent back up for Lukaku sorted.

Obviously you want all 3 cb's to go. Do you think Browning and Galloway are ready to step in? Or do you see us signing 3 centre backs? I see us signing 1 Cb, letting Distin go and bring Galloway/Browning in, hopefully to slowly faze out the others.

Yes, it's a big stretch to have a firesale of that many players, I'd concede (should have been going into phase two of this in the summer...but he dodged phase one last summer). On Mirallas: he's good on the break and not much more. I dont see him as being integral to a side that wants to work the ball about at pace, he's a ball hogger. He'll likely be off anyway, so he's going to need replacing.I have no idea how near the likes of Galloway and Browning are. Browning seems ok (wasn't starstruck in the cameo derby appearance, which is a good sign). My preference is for an experienced CB to come in alongside Stones though. To have two that young age is tempting fate a bit.

Of the kids coming through, I'd like to see Ledson given a bit more playing time. He looked very composed against Krasnador and good range of passing. The kid Dowell looks like he has a brain on him. I think he has a real future with us and looked the pick of them in that Krasnador game. I'd also bring Long back into the fold. I dont see how he could be any worse than Kone, tbh, and he might just be picking up the experience he needs out on loan.

 

[davek]

Martinez loves him. He sees something in him that simply isn't there. Do you not see how little things like this worry people?

TBF, EVERYONE saw something in Naismith didn't they (not me obviously)?

Or cant that be acknowledged by you?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

@davek - the simple facts have blown your latest excuse for Martinez complete failure in the league this, season, right out of the water, so you resort to patronising nonsense comments as opposed to actually backing up your argument with anything than your usual wum style bluster.

btw we won 2 of the games directly after our EL ties, and lost 3 - with the defeats at United and Spurs being 2 of them. The only game you could have maybe say had been affected by the EL was Palace home, after we'd been given the runaround for 40 minutes at home to Wolfsburg.

So one game accounted for.....we've won 6 out of 28.

1 game in the LC and 6 EL games over the space of 6 months and it's totally derailed our campaign?

Ok mate x

 

[catcherintherye]

Yes, it's a big stretch to have a firesale of that many players, I'd concede (should have been going into phase two of this in the summer...but he dodged phase one last summer). On Mirallas: he's good on the break and not much more. I dont see him as being integral to a side that wants to work the ball about at pace, he's a ball hogger. He'll likely be off anyway, so he's going to need replacing.I have no idea how near the likes of Galloway and Browning are. Browning seems ok (wasn't starstruck in the cameo derby appearance, which is a good sign). My preference is for an experienced CB to come in alongside Stones though. To have two that young age is tempting fate a bit.

Of the kids coming through, I'd like to see Ledson given a bit more playing time. He looked very composed against Krasnador and good range of passing. The kid Dowell looks like he has a brain on him. I think he has a real future with us and looked the pick of them in that Krasnador game. I'd also bring Long back into the fold. I dont see how he could be any worse than Kone, tbh, and he might just be picking up the experience he needs out on loan.

Well I have no problem with Mirallas's ability. I just think he's lost all respect for the manager and you can see he irritates his teammates.

I think an experienced centre back would be ideal. I suppose that's why for now I would keep Jagielka and probably Alcaraz though as they have that experience but look to get another younger centre half in.

Browning I quite like but I'm not convinced he'll be a centre back, I sense he'll play right back.

Of the rest, we have lots of good midfield players coming through, led by Ledson. I agree on Long too, his goal in pre season was top class. And yes can't be much worse than Kone!

 

[davek]

I'm not having that. For a start he was here two seasons and was indeed a great player for the club, being key in winning the FA Cup in 1984 and the title and Cup Winners' Cup in 1985. He was the type of fearless player we could do with at the club now.

What a short memory you have.

Being great / Everton Great.

Compare and contrast.