Andy Gray: Martinez Not Helping Lukaku

[Bally1960]

Aye gonna be boss seeing the likes of Mirallas and Lukaku shown the door with the likes of Cleverly and Carroll coming in.

Phe nom in nominal!

 

[4737carlin]

Andrew Mullen Gray took us to the cleaners when we were interested in appointing him manager. Anyone who considers him or Bilic a genuine replacement to Martinez needs to give their head a few whirls. Bilic diddled the club out of money and Gray has shown blatant disrespect to the club by using it as a bargaining piece for a better contract with Sky.

Not even close to being true, that simply did not happen, Peter Johnson spoke to Andy Gray about the managers job but he was never offered it, then Johnson than let it be known in the media that he had spoke to Gray and Sky found out about it.
Johnson was a sly piece of work, you need to read up about him,this manipulating in the media is the tip of the iceberg.
People are quick to forget this, Andy Gray was never offered the job at all and there was nothing for him to use to bargain, this is all well known by people who were around at the time.

Andy Gray is an Everton legend and anyone who either seen him or knows the truth about what happened with Johnson will tell you this.

 

[Khalekan]

What's wrong with Everton's past players referring to us as 'we'?

I haven't heard it, but I gather that he's dissed us at some time. Has he?

Not that I have ever heard.

 

[Khalekan]

Not even close to being true, that simply did not happen, Peter Johnson spoke to Andy Gray about the managers job but he was never offered it, then Johnson than let it be known in the media that he had spoke to Gray and Sky found out about it.
Johnson was a sly piece of work, you need to read up about him,this manipulating in the media is the tip of the iceberg.
People are quick to forget this, Andy Gray was never offered the job at all and there was nothing for him to use to bargain, this is all well known by people who were around at the time.

Andy Gray is an Everton legend and anyone who either seen him or knows the truth about what happened with Johnson will tell you this.

Spot on, Carlin.

 

[squonk]

Not even close to being true, that simply did not happen, Peter Johnson spoke to Andy Gray about the managers job but he was never offered it, then Johnson than let it be known in the media that he had spoke to Gray and Sky found out about it.
Johnson was a sly piece of work, you need to read up about him,this manipulating in the media is the tip of the iceberg.
People are quick to forget this, Andy Gray was never offered the job at all and there was nothing for him to use to bargain, this is all well known by people who were around at the time.

Andy Gray is an Everton legend and anyone who either seen him or knows the truth about what happened with Johnson will tell you this.

Exactly. It's funny the way history get's distorted to the extent that a club legend ends up taking the flak for the failings of a kopite.

 

[catcherintherye]

The player performances are a lot to do with this season, agreed.

I know some think it's a wind up, but there is something to the notion of second season syndrome at play here. These players had it all to prove last season and rose to the challenge. They had a lot of good press and praise from 'the experts'. They just didn't put the hard yards in this season - as said, the gear change between Europe and domestic workload was a tough one, but they need to look to their own application of effort also.

I don't see it as a windup at all. Every manager has a honeymoon period where people are on board. Most (almost all in fact) will hit the point where that wears off and there is normally something of a crisis.

It's at that point decisions have to be made. I really don't criticise Martinez for second season syndrome as to me hitting a sticky patch is inevitable. Of course one could criticise him for not minimising it (I think he very optimistic, upbeat positive nature has probably exacerbated it somewhat). Though crucially he has not caused it.

What I would criticise him for is probably being a bit reactive and not pre empting this better. The idea players like Distin, Howard and Jagielka could play as he wanted them too was misguided. Just as his reliance on Osman/Peinaar to provide creativity was always going to be risky given their ages.

Having a poor second season I don't blame Martinez for. I suppose what I blame him for was not starting the process of rebuilding earlier. This is what Alex Ferguson was a master at.

 

[davek]

There was in the EL.

Which is what I said, Dave.

As you point out, it was the busy domestic programme in midwinter which has proven to be our undoing, not the seasonally mothballed Europa League.

...which came on the back of 6 EL games compressed into 10 weeks.

 

[davek]

I don't see it as a windup at all. Every manager has a honeymoon period where people are on board. Most (almost all in fact) will hit the point where that wears off and there is normally something of a crisis.

It's at that point decisions have to be made. I really don't criticise Martinez for second season syndrome as to me hitting a sticky patch is inevitable. Of course one could criticise him for not minimising it (I think he very optimistic, upbeat positive nature has probably exacerbated it somewhat). Though crucially he has not caused it.

What I would criticise him for is probably being a bit reactive and not pre empting this better. The idea players like Distin, Howard and Jagielka could play as he wanted them too was misguided. Just as his reliance on Osman/Peinaar to provide creativity was always going to be risky given their ages.

Having a poor second season I don't blame Martinez for. I suppose what I blame him for was not starting the process of rebuilding earlier. This is what Alex Ferguson was a master at.

He's given too much credit to the players he has there by giving them a lot of space to play their way out of the poor form they were/are in. His Achilles heel for me is that he tends to believe he can adapt ANY player to do the job required at this club. I think that's folly, tbh. Maybe part of that attitude is due to the knowledge that massive funds aren't there to make major alterations, so he's given Kenwright some spiel about spending and he's sticking with the storyline. He's got to get real this summer. For me, Howard, Distin, Jagielka, Alcarez, Kone all have to be shown the door...and I'd ponder long and hard whether Naismith is worth keeping as a squad player.

He's got a big rebuilding job now. But if he's to play the way he wants to and the way we know is possible from him, he's got to be bold enough to a have a summer clearout.

 

[Khalekan]

...which came on the back of 6 EL games compressed into 10 weeks.

No it didn't.

We had yet to play the Krasnador home game and even when we did play that one, it was a dead rubber and we put a second string out.

In the early part of the season the players are fresh and well capable of coping with a midweek match.

Using the EL as an excuse for the calamitous almost three months which followed after it went into hiatus just doesn't wash.

 

[Jacko93]

The movement from midfielders ahead of our defenders who have the ball hasn't been great though either. How many times are you watching Everton play and they're stiid like statues (this happened a lot under Moyes too tbf), but this lack of creative movement leaves the defenders with little option to pass it square as Stones aside, they don't have the flair, technique and creativity to do much else. This is why we so often saw the diagonal punt up to Fellaini etc, and the defenders wanting to go to their natural instinct of HOOF!

Lukaku gets ripped for being offside often, but quicker passing would often eliminate that.

Tbh, using wingers would eliminate that.

 

[davek]

No it didn't.

We had yet to play the Krasnador home game and even when we did play that one, it was a dead rubber and we put a second string out.

Using the EL as an excuse for the calamitous almost three months

What do you mean 'no it didn't'...what didn't? The EL stages ended mid-December. The fact we played a second string against Krasnador still meant we had that fixture there to get through. But ok, if you prefer, we had 5 intense EL games packed into an 8 week period before the December.

Not reading much easier really is it?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

@davek - only there was 12 weeks between the first EL fixture and the last and the last was a dead rubber, so 5 games in 12 weeks was the real total.

Given we went out of the LC on our first outing, it was hardly an a massive additional burden.

It's a crap excuse for the seasons failings.

 

[daz4matty]

@davek - only there was 12 weeks between the first EL fixture and the last and the last was a dead rubber, so 5 games in 12 weeks was the real total.

Given we went out of the LC on our first outing, it was hardly an a massive additional burden.

It's a crap excuse for the seasons failings.

He is running out of excuses.

 

[davek]

@davek - only there was 12 weeks between the first EL fixture and the last and the last was a dead rubber, so 5 games in 12 weeks was the real total.

Given we went out of the LC on our first outing, it was hardly an a massive additional burden.

It's a crap excuse for the seasons failings.

...travelling, mental preparation between league and European football, lack of preparation time...

yeah. nothing. That'll be why statistically it's borne out the link between poor results following European duty - something which is widely understood.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

@davek - your theory about travelling, tiredness, lack of planning time etc, somewhat dies on it's arse when you see that 5 out of our 6 league wins this season have been in the games either directly before or directly after a EL group game. The only fixture that you possibly argue that tiredness might have been a a factor was the CP home game after Wolfsburg home.