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Are we to blame?

Are the fans to blame?

  • Yes mate

  • No lad

  • Cheese on toast

  • I’m dead angry at a screen.

Results are only viewable after voting.
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No fan would ever choose an unfit DCL and a statue like Rondon in a front two, with a centre midfield of Gomes and Doucoure.
So I can't blame the fans at all, even when expectations were massive after Moshiri took over. In a twenty team league there can only be one winner
 
Spart said:
Its a good thing to call out bad stuff as you see it, but some seem to not realise there is a point where calling out everything bad for the sake of it becomes part of the problem itself.

Someone else in this thread said they quite like the fact that we are a bit snide, and I really don't get how they can't see how that could be bad for our club. Fans who are on the whole more cynical than others means an ever-decreasong circle culture of continuing shitness to me.

I think some seem to think being an Evertonian means you have to be the polar opposite of everything a kopite is. They sing songs, so we shouldn't, they make flags and banners so we shouldn't, they big up their players all the time so we should be cynically 'honest' about ours. I even remember a short embarrassing period a while ago when they started doing that little group hug thing on the pitch just before Kick off, so our team started doing it and had their own fans booing them for it.
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I read into you posts two things; firstly you seem to argue that it is fine to call out bad stuff when things are relatively bad however when things get really bad then you should shut up and get behind the bad stuff. How about calling out bad stuff when things are relatively bad in the hope someone listens and corrects the mistakes. If you transpose your argument to the political arena when we all should be solidly behind Boris because things were relatively bad under May but now that Boris has completely buggered things up we should rally in behind him.
The second point, I feel, you make is that we should laud our players in the same way as Liverpool do theirs, the issue I have with that is that Liverpool have been successful in their recent past so it is easy for them to praise their past. I also take issue with the accusation that we don’t hold our past players in high esteem, this is wrong, all Evertonians, I would suggest hold players like Ray Wilson, Alan Ball, Howard Kendall, Dave Watson, Mick Lyons, Bob Latchford, Peter Reid, Leighton Baines, and many many more, our problem is we need to have a considerably better memory than Liverpool supporters to remember someone to hold up as an example.
 

chicoazul said:
Just leave this here. Make of that what you will.

Click to expand...


I just properly hate the premise that somehow the "intelligent minority" was the louder voice, like id love that too in any type of public discourse, aye lets have your essay published in the Quarterly Journal of Everton Da's with PhDs, maybe Carrick and Neville can mull its finer points on MDF.

Really, the intelligent minority is never the louder voice in virtually any disipline, expecting anything like that is unrealistic. Then again that's the only point that could come close here, our compulsive need to expect too much is a staple of this club. Yeah it can suck sometimes but that's what it says on the badge.
 
What I have said in the first point (badly I admit) is that people seem to constantly be on the lookout for the downside to everything, instead of seeing some small merits for what they are. Yes call things out if they are bad, call them out especially if they are very bad, but also be prepared to accept there can be good stuff too if you are prepared to look for it.

And in the second point, could perhaps Liverpool's success be not entirely linked to their support of their players? It depends on whether you think the chicken comes before the egg or not.
 

chicoazul said:
Now hear me out on this but I’ve been thinking that there has to be something else that is a consistent in the failure of repeated Everton managers with an owner backing them financially. Obviously it’s not nice to hear this but do we as fans cause the toxicity around our club that means all are doomed to fail? Not saying it’s entirely the fans fault but the atmosphere of hysteria created by Evertonians is worse than Geordies, young players abused by fat dars or over hyped by FIFA obsessed millennials don’t stand a chance. Current narrative is that Moshiri is failing Everton but in my mind the fans are in cahoots with him after celebrating wildly a rich stranger taking over the club more than we celebrated the last trophy in 1995. Evertonians deserve better is a strap line used often but why do they deserve better and is this part of the entitled narrative that burdens anyone trying to fix the problem? Some, well many, Evertonians sabotage managerial appointments from the start as it wasn’t the manager they wanted and scouted themselves, so want to be proved right in their heads by the manager’s failure rather than Everton success.
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Not guilty here. Pretty certain the owner, manager(s), and players determine the outcome. No amount of rubbish I shout from the terraces ever affects the game.

If Moshiri is up late on the internet writing notes on what the fans think he should do next then he needs to remember “it’s the internet”.

You taught me that.
 
The fans don’t:

- Make any decisions
- Set the strategy and direction of the club
- Aren’t responsible for communicating the above
-Don’t decide the internal structure and appointments
- Don’t appoint or sack managers
- Don’t sign or sell players
- aren’t in a position to show strong and decisive leadership

Can we get frustrated and impatient, yes. Why is that though?

I’d say basically, decisions we know are bad related to all the above but delivered with a sickeningly positive PR spin by the club. Don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining, the club treat the fans like fools. We try to be positive and support decisions we all know deep down don’t make sense but when they inevitably go pear shaped, people don’t have much patience for it. Time and again.

What makes that worse is a total lack of communication from the club and ownership of mistakes. There’s no strong leadership or accountability. If Moshiri/Kenwright/DBB came out held their hands up and said, we got that wrong, here’s why and here’s what we’re doing about it - they’d be more likely to take people with them, cut them a little slack and get on board.

There’s none of that, when you see something run so badly with no sign of change, people are going to lose patience, can’t blame the fans for that.
 
chicoazul said:
Now hear me out on this but I’ve been thinking that there has to be something else that is a consistent in the failure of repeated Everton managers with an owner backing them financially. Obviously it’s not nice to hear this but do we as fans cause the toxicity around our club that means all are doomed to fail? Not saying it’s entirely the fans fault but the atmosphere of hysteria created by Evertonians is worse than Geordies, young players abused by fat dars or over hyped by FIFA obsessed millennials don’t stand a chance. Current narrative is that Moshiri is failing Everton but in my mind the fans are in cahoots with him after celebrating wildly a rich stranger taking over the club more than we celebrated the last trophy in 1995. Evertonians deserve better is a strap line used often but why do they deserve better and is this part of the entitled narrative that burdens anyone trying to fix the problem? Some, well many, Evertonians sabotage managerial appointments from the start as it wasn’t the manager they wanted and scouted themselves, so want to be proved right in their heads by the manager’s failure rather than Everton success.
Click to expand...
Are we to blame?

NO
 
This post (despite your rep for the wind up) is literally bang on. A symbol of the issues you raise about our fan base was the treatment of the originals who wanted to create an atmosphere and where bombed out by everton dars and stewards within the first 15 minutes of the first game. Any notion of positivity is derided as “kopite behaviour“ and you can’t help but think this transmits to the players. It doesn’t help that the average age of people in the ground are mainly my age (40 plus). We need to get younger fans who want to get behind the team, and encourage when we are under pressure. The only real time we see goodison rocking ”the bearpit “ is when a perceived injustice has occurred either by the ref or snide behaviour from opposition players.

The hysterical and often toxic online abuse of fellow Evertonians, the players and the board (the latter largely deserved) troubles me as some of this just becomes part of the dna of the club, namely anger, failure and humourless behaviour of a sizeable section of our online activity, this must transmit to the players to some degree.

I don’t see much changing in the short term but hoping that the ground move gives us the opportunity to have a more vibrant atmosphere. Online I’m not sure how to solve that other than winning some footie matches.
 
I think it’s the fact that the managers and players haven’t won anything for years is the main problem. Maybe not the guy who spends a couple of hours at the match every second week.
It’s not like it’s a democracy where we voted for the manager or anything.
 

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