Baines: We have no chemistry

[bluestevon]

Not many in the squad have a history of being in the top 6 regularly though. Whilst we are not as bad as we currently seem to be we are not quite as good as most of us think we are either. There are some major flaws in our players.

Besides the lads we got from Wigan - which players do we have who are not sued to being near the top 6 mate? the lieks of Mori for example was used to winning things, same as Cleverley was at United, Barry was at City, Deulofeu came from Barca/Seville and has finisehd top 6 the last two seasons he has played etc

 

[blue61]

Besides the lads we got from Wigan - which players do we have who are not sued to being near the top 6 mate? the lieks of Mori for example was used to winning things, same as Cleverley was at United, Barry was at City, Deulofeu came from Barca/Seville and has finisehd top 6 the last two seasons he has played etc

Those lads at Leicester didn't have a top six spot between them before this season. It's the managers job to get the best out of the talent at his disposal, something which Martinez clearly hasn't done.

 

[Rook]

Oh come on, you mean I'm the 1st to post this??

 

[Papa Shango]

Besides the lads we got from Wigan - which players do we have who are not sued to being near the top 6 mate? the lieks of Mori for example was used to winning things, same as Cleverley was at United, Barry was at City, Deulofeu came from Barca/Seville and has finisehd top 6 the last two seasons he has played etc

Being "near the top 6" is not being a winner though is it?

Baines, Jagielka, Coleman etc have never won anything. Lennon hasnt I'm not crediting Ged with Barca or Seville as he was a bit part player at best with them and again top 6 doesnt make you a winner.

Barry IS a winner, you can tell that from how he plays and what he does on the field. Cleverley I dunno, same as Howard who technically won stuff they got shipped out pretty sharply. Most of the losers seem to be remnants from Moyes time here, thats not to say they are not good players, they are, but they have been brow beat so often into thinking that they cant win anything that they don't believe they can. Always the nearly men, so unlucky etc etc. They just dont have the mentality for me.

Obviously its not as black and white but I have said for ages there are mentality issues with this squad and there has been for a while.

 

[bluewally]

Being "near the top 6" is not being a winner though is it?

Baines, Jagielka, Coleman etc have never won anything. Lennon hasnt I'm not crediting Ged with Barca or Seville as he was a bit part player at best with them and again top 6 doesnt make you a winner.

Barry IS a winner, you can tell that from how he plays and what he does on the field. Cleverley I dunno, same as Howard who technically won stuff they got shipped out pretty sharply. Most of the losers seem to be remnants from Moyes time here, thats not to say they are not good players, they are, but they have been brow beat so often into thinking that they cant win anything that they don't believe they can. Always the nearly men, so unlucky etc etc. They just dont have the mentality for me.

Obviously its not as black and white but I have said for ages there are mentality issues with this squad and there has been for a while.

But where were the mentality issues in Martinez first season. A lot of the same players were involved. Or is this something that has developed as a result of coaching methods (Martinez or his staffs)

 

[Papa Shango]

Those lads at Leicester didn't have a top six spot between them before this season. It's the managers job to get the best out of the talent at his disposal, something which Martinez clearly hasn't done.

Or...we dont have quite as much talent as we think we have?

As much as I like the Leicester story its going to drive me mad for years now. It will be used by all and sundry for years any time a hint of underachievement occurs. "but Leicester did this..." etc. It's an anomaly. Everything has clicked into place for them. Players playing out of their skin, other clubs leveling out and taking points off each other. It wouldnt surprise me even if they win the league this year, and I hope they do, that they wont be anywhere near next season. Its just one of those things that football throws up every once in a while. We will be looking on thinking "that should have been us" but so will dozens of other clubs.

 

[BlueToff]

anyone who genuinely thinks chemistry is to do with speaking the same language or being from the same country needs to re-assess, like.

Baines is right, and it's down to the players - as soon as something goes wrong - not having a clue what to do and ultimately yes that comes from the manager.

 

[Papa Shango]

But where were the mentality issues in Martinez first season. A lot of the same players were involved. Or is this something that has developed as a result of coaching methods (Martinez or his staffs)

Honestly I think its to do with certain players getting older and not being able to give as much as they did.

But in Martinez's first season we got our highest points tally and looked nailed on for a top four finish at one point, then what happened? We came 5th didnt we? When we did get top 4 we got knocked out in the qualifiers and then the Europa in quick fashion. When we lost to Wigan in the cup it should have been ours for the taking. 1-0 up against the sh*te and what happens? We make an awful mistake and let them back in.

Glorious ways of losing have been our modus operandi for years. Its the Everton way after all.

 

[Papa Shango]

Phil Neville had won 5 or 6 league titles.

Yes and Neville was a winner. He wasnt a great footballer but you could see how much he wanted it. Most of the rubbish runs under Moyes ended with a Neville tackle or something similar to spark us back in to life.

We could do with a Neville in the squad right now. Maybe not his final 2 years version....

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Or...we dont have quite as much talent as we think we have?

Not that am saying its ALL to do with the manager.... because quite frankly i don't, the buck stops with him and his head is on the block.

Would you say we have more talent now then when we finished 4th? I would. Does this then mean that a managers abilities to get the most out of his players comes into effect, in which case thats not happening.

Buck stops with Martinez.

 

[JAYTALITY]

Honestly I think its to do with certain players getting older and not being able to give as much as they did.

But in Martinez's first season we got our highest points tally and looked nailed on for a top four finish at one point, then what happened? We came 5th didnt we? When we did get top 4 we got knocked out in the qualifiers and then the Europa in quick fashion. When we lost to Wigan in the cup it should have been ours for the taking. 1-0 up against the sh*te and what happens? We make an awful mistake and let them back in.

Glorious ways of losing have been our modus operandi for years. Its the Everton way after all.

Mate a lot of things can be suggested as blame but age is not one of them.

 

[Papa Shango]

Not that am saying its ALL to do with the manager.... because quite frankly i don't, the buck stops with him and his head is on the block.

Would you say we have more talent now then when we finished 4th? I would. Does this then mean that a managers abilities to get the most out of his players comes into effect, in which case thats not happening.

Buck stops with Martinez.

We do have more talent than when we finished 4th, but so does the rest of the league. Its hard to compare.

Yeah the buck does stop with Martinez but the players by and large have been a disgrace this season full of braindead decision making and half hearted effort. I'm just sick of them seemingly escaping all the flack.

 

[Papa Shango]

Mate a lot of things can be suggested as blame but age is not one of them.

Really? You dont think Howard has regressed with age? How about Baines? Baines is more due to injury than anything but he is struggling to get back to full fitness as he will take longer to heal now. How about Pienaar and Osman? Jagielka aint getting any younger either. These were all vital cogs in our team before Martinez arrived.

 

[bluestevon]

Being "near the top 6" is not being a winner though is it?

Baines, Jagielka, Coleman etc have never won anything. Lennon hasnt I'm not crediting Ged with Barca or Seville as he was a bit part player at best with them and again top 6 doesnt make you a winner.

Barry IS a winner, you can tell that from how he plays and what he does on the field. Cleverley I dunno, same as Howard who technically won stuff they got shipped out pretty sharply. Most of the losers seem to be remnants from Moyes time here, thats not to say they are not good players, they are, but they have been brow beat so often into thinking that they cant win anything that they don't believe they can. Always the nearly men, so unlucky etc etc. They just dont have the mentality for me.

Obviously its not as black and white but I have said for ages there are mentality issues with this squad and there has been for a while.

Lennon won the Cup with Spurs in 2008
Cleverley played 22 games in United title win in 12/13 and started half their league games - so yeah he's won the premiership title
Howard technically won stuff - well yes he won the FA Cup - starting in goal for them

The Wigan players - Kone, McCarthy, Robles - all won the FA Cup as well obviously
Deulofeu has won pretty much everything with the Spain under 21/19's and was born and bred in their academy mate - it will be ingrained in him to be a winner

As for the remnants of Moyes time not being winenrs - well pretty obvious really as most of them Baines/Jags and Coleman for example have moved here as their first major move from a lower league standard team

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

We do have more talent than when we finished 4th, but so does the rest of the league. Its hard to compare.

Yeah the buck does stop with Martinez but the players by and large have been a disgrace this season full of braindead decision making and half hearted effort. I'm just sick of them seemingly escaping all the flack.

Aye like i say, i don't think the players can totally get away with this at the moment... but everything stops with Martinez. perfect example is Howard, everyone could see he was on a decline for 3 years, maybe more, but Martinez didnt bring him out for Robles, and when he did last season he put Howard straight back in after his injury - he hasn't followed suit this time, but thats a mistake he should have rectified earlier