2020/21 Carlo Ancelotti

[toffeeblue9]

I know it wasn't going to be sorted in a season and I agree with all that other than his 'system'.

Really don't think he has one. But see my other response.

Time will tell. I just think his style is being able to put players on a pitch and they can change game-to-game. Now for that we do need better players than what we have, but they also need to have the physicality to play in the Premier League.

Interesting one this - I think the opening few games of last season gave us an idea of how Ancelotti wants us to play and the sort of system he envisages, but ultimately he's a pragmatist and he realised quite quickly that we didn't have the players to make it work - despite some good results because we had been great in attack at times, teams were really getting at us - the likes of West Brom and Brighton gave us real problems because we couldn't play the high line we needed to and as a result the games were stretched with huge chasms between the midfield and defence which teams could exploit. He changed it and we largely became a gritty, low block team for the rest of the season. It wasn't pretty to watch but he decided (rightly or wrongly) that it was the way to get the best results last season.

He clearly seems to think that he needs different players to be able to play a more expansive style. What he has been clear about since pretty much the start of his tenure here is that he doesn't have "one way" of playing (and he has literally said as much), he likes his teams to be able to play in different ways, so that identity that some people are wanting to see might never be a thing, but I think we know roughly what sort of side he wants us to be - use the opening few games of the season as your yardstick on this.

 

[MACCA75]

Let's look at it from a positive perspective as an example, when Martinez got his 72 points we were desperately unlucky not to have got Champions League football. A couple of seasons later that would have been good enough for 2nd. Though that season itself was an anomaly due to the low number of points amassed by the top 4 teams.

You pick up results throughout the season and that gets you your league position, in some seasons that would be good for x/y and z, as I said 59 averages out to a finishing position of 7.5 over the prior 3 seasons, so this season is unusual. Not really rocket science is it.

Wasn’t unlucky at all. You need to be one of the 4 best sides. We weren’t. We had chances to nail that position but we didn’t take it.
The number of points isn’t important, it’s how many teams you are better than that matters.

 

[Jim Hopper]

Interesting one this - I think the opening few games of last season gave us an idea of how Ancelotti wants us to play and the sort of system he envisages, but ultimately he's a pragmatist and he realised quite quickly that we didn't have the players to make it work - despite some good results because we had been great in attack at times, teams were really getting at us - the likes of West Brom and Brighton gave us real problems because we couldn't play the high line we needed to and as a result the games were stretched with huge chasms between the midfield and defence which teams could exploit. He changed it and we largely became a gritty, low block team for the rest of the season. It wasn't pretty to watch but he decided (rightly or wrongly) that it was the way to get the best results last season.

He clearly seems to think that he needs different players to be able to play a more expansive style. What he has been clear about since pretty much the start of his tenure here is that he doesn't have "one way" of playing (and he has literally said as much), he likes his teams to be able to play in different ways, so that identity that some people are wanting to see might never be a thing, but I think we know roughly what sort of side he wants us to be - use the opening few games of the season as your yardstick on this.

I think injuries and suspensions played a huge part in this as well but doesn’t really get mentioned. I honestly think the start of the season made people a bit more deluded as to the strengths of the current squad. I keep saying it but it really is no coincidence that our form and style dropped completely the moment we lost the likes of Allan and James, Digne, Coleman, with Richarlison’s suspension around that time frame and had to revert back to using the same team of last season pretty much. Only without any recognised winger or full backs.

 

[toffeeblue9]

I think injuries and suspensions played a huge part in this as well but doesn’t really get mentioned. I honestly think the start of the season made people a bit more deluded as to the strengths of the current squad. I keep saying it but it really is no coincidence that our form and style dropped completely the moment we lost the likes of Allan and James, Digne, Coleman, with Richarlison’s suspension around that time frame and had to revert back to using the same team of last season pretty much. Only without any recognised winger or full backs.

I think there's an element of that, but I also think we clearly changed our approach as there have been times since then when all those players were available and we didn't go back to that more attacking style.

 

[Jim Hopper]

I think there's an element of that, but I also think we clearly changed our approach as there have been times since then when all those players were available and we didn't go back to that more attacking style.

Lack of form, fitness levels and confidence could also have been a factor. James hasn’t looked 100% since the home derby. Allan in and out the team hasn’t looked at his best. Doucoure played virtually every game for us prior to his injury and then didn’t look sharp or fit when he returned. The rest I can’t even make excuses for as I know they’re generally terrible players. Richarlison I’m very disappointed in this season, genuinely don’t know what’s happened to him.

 

[MACCA75]

I think injuries and suspensions played a huge part in this as well but doesn’t really get mentioned. I honestly think the start of the season made people a bit more deluded as to the strengths of the current squad. I keep saying it but it really is no coincidence that our form and style dropped completely the moment we lost the likes of Allan and James, Digne, Coleman, with Richarlison’s suspension around that time frame and had to revert back to using the same team of last season pretty much. Only without any recognised winger or full backs.

We have signed some injury prone players like. Allan was out with 5 different injuries in his last season in Italy, and we knew James wouldn’t stay fit.
Gomes and Mina were injured when we signed them, Delph had a poor injury record..

Something we really need to bare in mind, especially for midfield as I just can’t bare watching Davies and Gylfi playing there again.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

The irony is, all managers who have a style or "philosophy" get hammered for being stubborn when it doesn't work. Klopp and Guardiola have both had it in the last few years when they have struggled despite winning everything in the game. Fortunately for them, they also have the world's best players to pick from as well as some questionable medical practices to boot.

It's the fickle nature of the football critic. The manager has a style? Hammer him for not changing. He doesn't have a style? Hammer him having no "Identity".

Ancelotti has said a number of times, football is not a complicated game. He might not have a defined style that is unique to him, but what he does have is a track record of frustrating managers who do. There's something to be said of the intelligence of someone who can devise a plan and see it through. Let's give him a chance to do it here.

Absolute nail on the head.

We vilified both Martinez and Silva for this exact thing, yet all of a sudden it's a concern that Ancelotti doesn't have a rigid way of playing like they did...

 

[Jim Hopper]

We have signed some injury prone players like. Allan was out with 5 different injuries in his last season in Italy, and we knew James wouldn’t stay fit.
Gomes and Mina were injured when we signed them, Delph had a poor injury record..

Something we really need to bare in mind, especially for midfield as I just can’t bare watching Davies and Gylfi playing there again.

Had my reservations on Allan from the start. Not doubting his ability but it’s very rare that any player from Serie A comes here and is successful. When your 30 odd years of age and it’s your first time playing in a more physically demanding league I think it was always gonna be a big risk.

I think he went with those two signings as he knew they were talented and players he could trust. I don’t blame him for doing it. It generally happens when managers move to new clubs. And to be fair those two players have improved us this season when called upon mostly, certainly a better improvement than what we currently have or had last season.

 

[AsiaAsia82]

Some players must come here for big money but low expectations. Until that level of expectation is raised and matched by the boardroom it will always stay the same.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Wasn’t unlucky at all. You need to be one of the 4 best sides. We weren’t. We had chances to nail that position but we didn’t take it.
The number of points isn’t important, it’s how many teams you are better than that matters.

It is when that many points almost guarantees CL football year in year out. A few fluke occurrences that may have not have happened in other seasons pushed some teams to a higher number of points than usual. Utd being crap being one that enabled other clubs including us to benefit. Of course we could do more but still unlucky.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Just read there that his ex-wife (Davide's mum) passed away this morning. Apparently they flew straight to Italy after the City game to be with her.

Terrible my thoughts are with them.

 

[BlueToff]

Wasn’t unlucky at all. You need to be one of the 4 best sides. We weren’t. We had chances to nail that position but we didn’t take it.
The number of points isn’t important, it’s how many teams you are better than that matters.

Had a debate on twitter - stupidly - about this last night. Someone saying that we'd all be chuffed with 59 points if offered it at the start of the season.

It means nothing without context. Had 59 points meant we finished sixth, I'm sure we'd all have taken it. But it meant we finished 10th with a negative goal difference.

 

[BlueToff]

Had my reservations on Allan from the start. Not doubting his ability but it’s very rare that any player from Serie A comes here and is successful. When your 30 odd years of age and it’s your first time playing in a more physically demanding league I think it was always gonna be a big risk.

I think he went with those two signings as he knew they were talented and players he could trust. I don’t blame him for doing it. It generally happens when managers move to new clubs. And to be fair those two players have improved us this season when called upon mostly, certainly a better improvement than what we currently have or had last season.

He was only 29 when we signed him like, he's not ancient.

We've seen good and bad things from Allan this year. But playing him in a role in front of the defence is wasting the talents he does have, especially in this league.

His best game for us was the West Ham game a few weeks back and he was playing in a role which suited him. Then Carlo decided not to play that system again at all for the rest of the season...

 

[MACCA75]

Had a debate on twitter - stupidly - about this last night. Someone saying that we'd all be chuffed with 59 points if offered it at the start of the season.

It means nothing without context. Had 59 points meant we finished sixth, I'm sure we'd all have taken it. But it meant we finished 10th with a negative goal difference.

Goal difference is a pretty good indicator of how good a side is IMO

 

[Egil Olsen]

Playing style is not very complicated. In principle, it sets common guidelines when the team is in attack, defense, defensive transition and offensive transition. How rigid these rules are will vary from manager to manager. However, these guidelines set a direction and bring individuals together into one entity with a common goal.

Playing style has little to do with formation, except that formation can sometimes indicate depth and width for the team. These phases must of course be further broken down so that players can practice these different moments. A style of play is not only useful for the players, but of course also for the manager. It is his vision for how football should be played that is presented. Pedagogically, it gives him some clear goals to work towards, and can constantly evaluate the progress of the team. In addition, the manager will get a clear overview of which players he needs to strengthen the team.

All managers have a playing style, including Ancelotti, the question is more about how well it is taught, how well the players perform it, and how effective the playing style is both in the short and long term. It is also a psychological question, what the players think about the style of play. Sean Dyche had not been able to implement his principles in Manchester City because the players had not accepted it (Moyes Manchester Unired). The biggest players in the world like to have a lot of freedom, as Ancelotti said about Ronaldo in Real Madrid; I do not need to give him any instructions. However, this relaxed attitude will not work in clubs like Burnely, because the style of play must compensate as much as possible for the lack of individual skill that the team has towards its competitors.

But even if you have a set of guidelines, you can adjust. In some matches you can man mark one or more of the opponents (if you have zone defense), you can use the midfield less than usual, adjust where you press, etc. Most managers are pragmatic that way. This is simply because fortball is a game played by two teams, and one always takes into account the opponent.

My criticism is not primarily that we lack a playing style, but that the way we play football is not very effective in a longer perspective. The way we play football also has clear limitations, we are a supposed counterattack team that does not score on counterattacks, and we have too few methods to break down the opponent. We are a fairly limited football team.