2024/25 Charly Alcaraz

[preposterousvelios]

….its a nonsense to say ‘we’re not getting better for that price’, I’m sure there’s plenty of examples of players who’ve been bought for similar and very effective in PL. We might pay a few bob more or a few quid less for better if Moyes and the recruitment team are doing their jobs.

I've not said there are no top players out there that could be signed for less. Brighton signed Mitoma for I think 5 or 6 million.

I'm saying that WE will not find a better deal this summer and I stand by that. I rate Alcaraz and tbh need to see a lot more change at the club before I can believe that we will be pulling rabbits out of hats in the transfer window this summer. Would love to be wrong etc etc

 

[preposterousvelios]

Kean was a totally different thing really, he was wanted by bigger clubs than us when he came in the first place and was being touted as a genuine superstar. Alcaraz was being hawked round by his agent and ended up coming to a relegation threatened team where he isn’t playing regularly. Like I said, I like him, but what you’re saying is just patently untrue.

Yeah Kean was a bigger name but also double the money to recoup. Really don't think its a crazy thing to suggest at all that we would be able to make back our money on Alcaraz if we chose to sell him.

15m really does not get you a lot these days unless you are signing players from the source (South America, Scandinavia, Asia). If people really think we are going to be able to sign a handful of players of this quality for the same kind of price this summer they're in for a nasty surprise.

 

[Lanolin]

Yeah Kean was a bigger name but also double the money to recoup. Really don't think its a crazy thing to suggest at all that we would be able to make back our money on Alcaraz if we chose to sell him.

15m really does not get you a lot these days unless you are signing players from the source (South America, Scandinavia, Asia). If people really think we are going to be able to sign a handful of players of this quality for the same kind of price this summer they're in for a nasty surprise.

I’m not saying it’s crazy, I’m just saying it’s clearly not guaranteed. It’s an argument you hear a lot on here, as if anyone under 23 can only see their value go one way, but it isn’t true. Players are only worth what someone will pay for them - we should all know this by now considering the issues we’ve had trying to offload people in recent years.

 

[W84 Dum Freeze]

Yeah Kean was a bigger name but also double the money to recoup. Really don't think its a crazy thing to suggest at all that we would be able to make back our money on Alcaraz if we chose to sell him.

15m really does not get you a lot these days unless you are signing players from the source (South America, Scandinavia, Asia). If people really think we are going to be able to sign a handful of players of this quality for the same kind of price this summer they're in for a nasty surprise.

It's about building a team / squad rather than signing individuals.

I hope we steer clear of crocked journeymen
on big money in the main and invest in promising talent with a resale value.

 

[preposterousvelios]

I’m not saying it’s crazy, I’m just saying it’s clearly not guaranteed. It’s an argument you hear a lot on here, as if anyone under 23 can only see their value go one way, but it isn’t true. Players are only worth what someone will pay for them - we should all know this by now considering the issues we’ve had trying to offload people in recent years.

We've struggled to move players on because we gave a load of sub par, ageing players absolutely mental contracts. If the average wage and age of the squad comes down this is much less likely to be an issue. If anything i would say we've done very well to extract the maximum value from various young players we've sold in recent years, most of whom had very little about them.

Nothing is ever a guarantee in football, all you can do is do try to make the most of the money and resources available to you. 15m for Alcaraz to me has a lot of potential upside with relatively low risk, maybe that's a better articulation of what I'm trying to say.

 

[Eggs]

I've not said there are no top players out there that could be signed for less. Brighton signed Mitoma for I think 5 or 6 million.

I'm saying that WE will not find a better deal this summer and I stand by that. I rate Alcaraz and tbh need to see a lot more change at the club before I can believe that we will be pulling rabbits out of hats in the transfer window this summer. Would love to be wrong etc etc

….we know little of Alcaraz, Moyes is seeing him everyday, there might be a reason he’s had a few moves in quick succession. It’s conjecture to say we won’t get a better deal elsewhere.

I agree that pulling rabbits out the hat, unearthing a few gems etc is something we’ve not really done for some time (Branthwaite maybe in recent times) so we live in hope on that front. Interesting times ahead but we’re safe, have new owners and a fine stadium move to look forward to.

Out with the old, in with the new but nobody’s pretending it’s going to be easy.

 

[preposterousvelios]

….we know little of Alcaraz, Moyes is seeing him everyday, there might be a reason he’s had a few moves in quick succession. It’s conjecture to say we won’t get a better deal elsewhere.

I agree that pulling rabbits out the hat, unearthing a few gems etc is something we’ve not really done for some time (Branthwaite maybe in recent times) so we live in hope on that front. Interesting times ahead but we’re safe, have new owners and a fine stadium move to look forward to.

Out with the old, in with the new but nobody’s pretending it’s going to be easy.

Tbf I agree that at first glance it is odd that he's not been able to settle at any of the 3 clubs he was at before us. He looks to have some fire in his belly but maybe that can spill over into petulance if things aren't going his way.

There's just so much to do this summer. So many players need to be brought in on a limited budget, as you said it's not going to be easy. From what I've seen of him 15m represents good value. Highly likely we would end up regretting it come the end of summer if we pass on signing him imo.

 

[Eggs]

Tbf I agree that at first glance it is odd that he's not been able to settle at any of the 3 clubs he was at before us. He looks to have some fire in his belly but maybe that can spill over into petulance if things aren't going his way.

There's just so much to do this summer. So many players need to be brought in on a limited budget, as you said it's not going to be easy. From what I've seen of him 15m represents good value. Highly likely we would end up regretting it come the end of summer if we pass on signing him imo.

…I actually like the fire in the belly attitude, it demonstrates playing matters but if he’s moody and difficult about the place then that becomes a concern. He could be a gem of a lad, we just don’t know but it seems odd that his parent club moved him out soon after buying him.

 

[Lanolin]

We've struggled to move players on because we gave a load of sub par, ageing players absolutely mental contracts. If the average wage and age of the squad comes down this is much less likely to be an issue. If anything i would say we've done very well to extract the maximum value from various young players we've sold in recent years, most of whom had very little about them.

Nothing is ever a guarantee in football, all you can do is do try to make the most of the money and resources available to you. 15m for Alcaraz to me has a lot of potential upside with relatively low risk, maybe that's a better articulation of what I'm trying to say.

This is an oft repeated but very simplistic view of what caused our problems. The idea that we just signed a load of over the hill players is not even close to being true - our issue was that we didn’t recruit well enough full stop. The whole ‘we signed players without resale value’ line is such a reductive take. We signed players who weren’t good enough, simple as that. Klaasen, Sandro, Gomes, Mina, Godfrey, Keane, Patterson, Tosun etc etc were all of an age that they could theoretically be moved on but none of them worked out. Overpaying is overpaying, you don’t just magically get your money back because someone’s under 26, this is real life not Zats playground.

 

[heatmeiser]

Not been the player Soton fans said he was on Twitter when he signed. But him not being Doucoure or Harrison is a massive redeeming feature. Can't believe them to start games together.

How many games has he started since he joined?

 

[Zatara]

This is an oft repeated but very simplistic view of what caused our problems. The idea that we just signed a load of over the hill players is not even close to being true - our issue was that we didn’t recruit well enough full stop. The whole ‘we signed players without resale value’ line is such a reductive take. We signed players who weren’t good enough, simple as that. Klaasen, Sandro, Gomes, Mina, Godfrey, Keane, Patterson, Tosun etc etc were all of an age that they could theoretically be moved on but none of them worked out. Overpaying is overpaying, you don’t just magically get your money back because someone’s under 26, this is real life not Zats playground.

Youve named 4 players that I said were crap and then referenced me.

Misconception here. Alex Ferguson said a 50/50 success in recruitment was decent -- if we had signed some of the players e.g Guimaraes and Wharton that I wanted then it would have left us with enough upside to dwarf any losses.

Thats precisely why you recruit young players with tremendous upside.

Such as a £15mil Alcaraz.

 

[Lanolin]

Youve named 4 players that I said were crap and then referenced me.

Misconception here. Alex Ferguson said a 50/50 success in recruitment was decent -- if we had signed some of the players e.g Guimaraes and Wharton that I wanted then it would have left us with enough upside to dwarf any losses.

Thats precisely why you recruit young players with tremendous upside.

Such as a £15mil Alcaraz.

I referenced you in a tongue in cheek way because you are widely regarded as constantly advocating signing and playing young players (most of whom you've never seen). But please, tell me again how we should sign Wharton, it's minutes since I last read it.

 

[Zatara]

I referenced you in a tongue in cheek way because you are widely regarded as constantly advocating signing and playing young players (most of whom you've never seen). But please, tell me again how we should sign Wharton, it's minutes since I last read it.

"Most of whom you've never seen"...

...he wrote to a stranger on the internet.

 

[preposterousvelios]

This is an oft repeated but very simplistic view of what caused our problems. The idea that we just signed a load of over the hill players is not even close to being true - our issue was that we didn’t recruit well enough full stop. The whole ‘we signed players without resale value’ line is such a reductive take. We signed players who weren’t good enough, simple as that. Klaasen, Sandro, Gomes, Mina, Godfrey, Keane, Patterson, Tosun etc etc were all of an age that they could theoretically be moved on but none of them worked out. Overpaying is overpaying, you don’t just magically get your money back because someone’s under 26, this is real life not Zats playground.

I've not said at any point that you are magically guaranteed to make your money back on all players under 26. I also haven't at any point said that we just signed over the hill players and that was our whole problem. Getting that from my previous posts in this thread is something of a 'reductive take' as you say.

We did sign over the hill players, and we did generally sign players who were not up to the standard required, but both of these issues were compounded by the ludicrous contracts that we offered those players. We were unable to move on squad players who weren't contributing because we had given them contracts that no other club would come close to matching, meaning they either wait their contracts out and leave on a free or leave for a drastically reduced fee to compensate for the wage.

This is what needs to change, regardless of the age of any signings we make this summer. Players should only be joining the club because they want to play for Everton and think its the right step in their career, not because we have offered them twice as much as the next club. Its what we have to do to correct our finances and I would imagine we also would end up with less unserious players at the club if this is how we are doing business. You want players to be working and fighting to earn that bump in their contract, and I dont think we've seen a lot of that in recent years.

 

[Lanolin]

I've not said at any point that you are magically guaranteed to make your money back on all players under 26. I also haven't at any point said that we just signed over the hill players and that was our whole problem. Getting that from my previous posts in this thread is something of a 'reductive take' as you say.

We did sign over the hill players, and we did generally sign players who were not up to the standard required, but both of these issues were compounded by the ludicrous contracts that we offered those players. We were unable to move on squad players who weren't contributing because we had given them contracts that no other club would come close to matching, meaning they either wait their contracts out and leave on a free or leave for a drastically reduced fee to compensate for the wage.

This is what needs to change, regardless of the age of any signings we make this summer. Players should only be joining the club because they want to play for Everton and think its the right step in their career, not because we have offered them twice as much as the next club. Its what we have to do to correct our finances and I would imagine we also would end up with less unserious players at the club if this is how we are doing business. You want players to be working and fighting to earn that bump in their contract, and I dont think we've seen a lot of that in recent years.

I'm literally just responding to the points you're making though? The simple point I was making is that if Alcaraz were to fail here we would be unlikely to get our money back on him, because generally that isn't how it works. You have argued against that so I pointed out that we have seen other players over recent years, but you said that was only because we signed players who were too old. I'm now saying that isn't the case and giving you examples. All I'm saying is just assuming we'd get our money back on a player who has failed for the second time in the PL and also in Serie A seems slightly unrealistic, but you clearly disagree with that for reasons i'm still not entirely clear on.