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David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

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davek said:
You literally did that?

That's strange.

Martinez IS their most successful manager with the best win rate and highest place finish in a World Cup.

LITERALLY...to use your preferred word.
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So, winning a cup does not really matter to you. And all that drivel that you have been throwing about Moyes not winning anything is just hot-air is it? To be called "greatest-ever" a manager has to be most-ever at your preferred choice of parameters.

At club level, Martinez winning percent 39.2% Moyes 42.5. So by YOUR preferred logic Moyes is a better club manager, surely.
 
Chris O'Connor said:
West Ham top their Europa League group, have just knocked City out of the league cup and sit in the top four in the league. Their trajectory is clearly upwards having just won four games on the bounce.

It's difficult to remember a better time for West Ham who with the exception of last year when they got Europe, usually sit in the bottom half looking downwards not upwards.

By contrast our trajectory is clearly downwards having lost to the hammers at home and then humiliated at home by relegation favourites Watford, conceding four goals in about 12 minutes,.

It's the direction of movement as well as the current position that tells a story. Last season now looks anything but a one-off successful one for Moyes' hammers, despite all the protestations that it was from his haters on here.

You can damn them with faint praise but the facts are they're going places.
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Weren't we (jokingly) saying we could win the league and then (reasonably) think we could get Europe until injuries ruined us? We finished 6 points behind West Ham. If we didn't have the injury crisis, who knows what would've happened? Talking about this season at this stage is daft IMO. There's a LONG way to go yet.

You seem to be wanting the misery. You keep talking about "telling a story" but you're not telling the full story. We've been hard hit by injuries, ANY team would struggle when losing their best players. We've been unfortunate/unlucky/cursed. Our season isn't over though. It ruined our chances last season.

I'm not for one minute downplaying what Moyes or WHU are doing. They're doing great, I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the fact that you're painting a picture of them being perfect and us crashing. When in reality, last season there was 6 points between us (many thought we'd get Europe until the injuries) and there's 3 points between us this season (Davies could've made it 1 point/not conceding the set piece against WHU could've meant level or above) both games IMO, we win without our injuries.
 

wandyr79 said:
In his 1st season Martinez made small adjustments to the tactics, which is the norm. It very much looked like he left the defensive tactics alone and focused on attacking and that did improve, for that one season. In the second and third where he had more and more of his stamp on the team, more and more of his players, he failed. Would Moyes have finished 5th in that season, very much a possibility given his previous finishing positions, would Moyes have finished 11th the next 2 seasons, I think that is less likely.
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Martinez completely transformed the way we played from back to front. We played out from the back and through midfield a lot more and went for possession (more especially at home). It was a revolution in strategy from what went before. There was no tweaks.

And never mind Moyes "not finishing 11th"...he finished us 17th one season and could have relegated us if the collapse had started earlier.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Guy Thys is their most successful manager

Reached the World Cup Semi Finals just as Martinez did and also reached a European Championships Final, whilst Martinez hasn't got them past the Quarter Final stage by comparison

I'm sure you'll make some ham-fisted argument about how that Final doesn't count as much as Martinez scraping past Japan in 2018 or some such nonsense, because that's what you do, but it cannot be denied that Thys was a better manager for Belgium and the only way Martinez will ever surpass him is by winning a pot

Win % doesn't count for much if you've nothing to show for it
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No. Thys got a 4th place finish in the WC, Martinez a 3rd place finish.

Martinez also got Belgium to number one in the FIFA world rankings for 3 straight years.
 
PhoenixFirebird said:
So, winning a cup does not really matter to you. And all that drivel that you have been throwing about Moyes not winning anything is just hot-air is it? To be called "greatest-ever" a manager has to be most-ever at your preferred choice of parameters.

At club level, Martinez winning percent 39.2% Moyes 42.5. So by YOUR preferred logic Moyes is a better club manager, surely.
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What?!
 

davek said:
No. Thys got a 4th place finish in the WC, Martinez a 3rd place finish.

Martinez also got Belgium to number one in the FIFA world rankings for 3 straight years.
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Wasnt there some female tennis player who got to #1 in the world rankings but never actually won a major championship? Or a slam?

Martinez is a lovely bloke, but flawed as a manager. That doesnt make him a poor manager, it makes him bang average.
 
davek said:
Martinez completely transformed the way we played from back to front. We played out from the back and through midfield a lot more and went for possession (more especially at home). It was a revolution in strategy from what went before. There was no tweaks.

And never mind Moyes "not finishing 11th"...he finished us 17th one season and could have relegated us if the collapse had started earlier.
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Not at all. We finished 17th for sure on 39 points. We weren't in any relegation danger though, due to the three teams below us being so bad.
 
roydo said:
Wasnt there some female tennis player who got to #1 in the world rankings but never actually won a major championship? Or a slam?

Martinez is a lovely bloke, but flawed as a manager. That doesnt make him a poor manager, it makes him bang average.
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He's more than bang average. Bang average doesn't take the Dog & Duck into an FA Cup final and beat a team assembled for a billion quid and managed by a "superstar" manager....and wipe the floor with a decent Everton team along the way.
 
davek said:
He's more than bang average. Bang average doesn't take the Dog & Duck into an FA Cup final and beat a team assembled for a billion quid and managed by a "superstar" manager....and wipe the floor with a decent Everton team along the way.
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Many teams would have beaten Man City that day. They had fired Mancini before the match and the players didn't try a leg.

Compare that to our injury ravaged team playing peak Chelsea.
 

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