David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Half the blues hyping Moyes up now just because West Ham are doing well are almost certainly the same fans that would've wanted him sacked and replaced by Ian Holloway in 10-11!

That is an excellent point. I recall campaigns for Owen Coyle and Slaven Bilic too.

Fickle and deeply dissatisfied creatures are footie fans.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

I think Moyes turning up and asking Robin Van Persie to play like Andy Carroll and signing Fellaini to replace Scholes whilst giving Rio Ferdinand Jagiielka instructions......whilst banning certain things from the canteen meant he lost the changing room.

fergies advice to Moyes was let the players lead you ..... He didn't have to change much but had to be a wrecking ball.

he can't manage big players.

That's just bollocks. For one thing, Fellaini was a last-minute panic signing after Woodward failed to get any of his signings. But the idea Ferguson, of all people, would say a manager let the players "lead you" is complete rubbish. Here is what he has actually said:

“You can’t ever lose control—not when you are dealing with 30 top professionals who are all millionaires,” Ferguson told us. “And if any players want to take me on, to challenge my authority and control, I deal with them.”

"If the day came that the manager of Manchester United was controlled by the players—in other words, if the players decided how the training should be, what days they should have off, what the discipline should be, and what the tactics should be—then Manchester United would not be the Manchester United we know. Before I came to United, I told myself I wasn’t going to allow anyone to be stronger than I was. Your personality has to be bigger than theirs. That is vital.

"There are occasions when you have to ask yourself whether certain players are affecting the dressing-room atmosphere, the performance of the team, and your control of the players and staff. If they are, you have to cut the cord. There is absolutely no other way. It doesn’t matter if the person is the best player in the world. The long-term view of the club is more important than any individual, and the manager has to be the most important one in the club.

"Some English clubs have changed managers so many times that it creates power for the players in the dressing room. That is very dangerous. If the coach has no control, he will not last. You have to achieve a position of comprehensive control. Players must recognize that as the manager, you have the status to control events. You can complicate your life in many ways by asking, “Oh, I wonder if the players like me?” If I did my job well, the players would respect me, and that’s all you need.

"I tended to act quickly when I saw a player become a negative influence. Some might say I acted impulsively, but I think it was critical that I made up my mind quickly. Why should I have gone to bed with doubts? I would wake up the next day and take the necessary steps to maintain discipline. It’s important to have confidence in yourself to make a decision and to move on once you have. It’s not about looking for adversity or for opportunities to prove power; it’s about having control and being authoritative when issues do arise."

And Ferguson is entirely correct. What happened to Moyes completely destroyed the culture he had laid down, and it became a circus. He told the fans Moyes needed time, but Woodward was weak, and allowed the fans and past-it senior members of the squad to force him out.

 

[PhilM]

That is an excellent point. I recall campaigns for Owen Coyle and Slaven Bilic too.

Fickle and deeply dissatisfied creatures are footie fans.

Eddie Howe. Graham Potter. Anyone ask for Wilder, Sherwood or Parker? Arteta shouts will be in the vault.

 

[number4.]

I think Moyes turning up and asking Robin Van Persie to play like Andy Carroll and signing Fellaini to replace Scholes whilst giving Rio Ferdinand Jagiielka instructions......whilst banning certain things from the canteen meant he lost the changing room.

fergies advice to Moyes was let the players lead you ..... He didn't have to change much but had to be a wrecking ball.

he can't manage big players.

Or perhaps he has learned lessons from a previous failure.

 

[marsh]

He will cock up against a team they shouldn't, think they have Newcastle away next so wouldn't suprise me if they get beat

 

[HumbleWedbetters]

That's just bollocks. For one thing, Fellaini was a last-minute panic signing after Woodward failed to get any of his signings. But the idea Ferguson, of all people, would say a manager let the players "lead you" is complete rubbish. Here is what he has actually said:

“You can’t ever lose control—not when you are dealing with 30 top professionals who are all millionaires,” Ferguson told us. “And if any players want to take me on, to challenge my authority and control, I deal with them.”

"If the day came that the manager of Manchester United was controlled by the players—in other words, if the players decided how the training should be, what days they should have off, what the discipline should be, and what the tactics should be—then Manchester United would not be the Manchester United we know. Before I came to United, I told myself I wasn’t going to allow anyone to be stronger than I was. Your personality has to be bigger than theirs. That is vital.

"There are occasions when you have to ask yourself whether certain players are affecting the dressing-room atmosphere, the performance of the team, and your control of the players and staff. If they are, you have to cut the cord. There is absolutely no other way. It doesn’t matter if the person is the best player in the world. The long-term view of the club is more important than any individual, and the manager has to be the most important one in the club.

"Some English clubs have changed managers so many times that it creates power for the players in the dressing room. That is very dangerous. If the coach has no control, he will not last. You have to achieve a position of comprehensive control. Players must recognize that as the manager, you have the status to control events. You can complicate your life in many ways by asking, “Oh, I wonder if the players like me?” If I did my job well, the players would respect me, and that’s all you need.

"I tended to act quickly when I saw a player become a negative influence. Some might say I acted impulsively, but I think it was critical that I made up my mind quickly. Why should I have gone to bed with doubts? I would wake up the next day and take the necessary steps to maintain discipline. It’s important to have confidence in yourself to make a decision and to move on once you have. It’s not about looking for adversity or for opportunities to prove power; it’s about having control and being authoritative when issues do arise."

And Ferguson is entirely correct. What happened to Moyes completely destroyed the culture he had laid down, and it became a circus. He told the fans Moyes needed time, but Woodward was weak, and allowed the fans and past-it senior members of the squad to force him out.

I take it you are a big Moyes fan. Fair enough...

Ferguson is correct..... 100%. He earned himself that level of authority and command after seeing out the likes of Strachan, Whiteside, McGrath and built a team to win things after delivering nothing.

Moyes walked into a group of players who just won the league ..... With leaders like Carrick, Ferdinand, Rooney right through the spine of the team.

Do you know what his first team talk was? - to tell them that he knows they won the league but they need to run more. Carrick stated that in his book.

Moyes style of management is to get more from lesser players or players with something to prove - always has been.

He is the ultimate glass ceiling manager. The fa cup final was a huge example of this - one nil up in sweltering heat, Chelsea one goal away from likely throwing their cards in as they had won the league. He sat us back and did nothing as the yellow carded hibbert was targeted by malouda and co.

Same again in the Jelavic semi final Vs Liverpool..... They had nothing but he sat us back to defend a narrow lead against a side who weren't at the races and allowed them to get into a rhythm.

 

[HumbleWedbetters]

Or perhaps he has learned lessons from a previous failure.

Did he though? Surrendered Vs one nil lead in the cup final by sitting back, then surrendered a one nil lead against an awful Liverpool performance in the semi final.

Despite commanding leads for west ham he does his best to throw away wins. Circle the wagons Moyes.

 

[Black Belt Jones]

I take it you are a big Moyes fan. Fair enough...

Ferguson is correct..... 100%. He earned himself that level of authority and command after seeing out the likes of Strachan, Whiteside, McGrath and built a team to win things after delivering nothing.

Moyes walked into a group of players who just won the league ..... With leaders like Carrick, Ferdinand, Rooney right through the spine of the team.

Do you know what his first team talk was? - to tell them that he knows they won the league but they need to run more. Carrick stated that in his book.

Moyes style of management is to get more from lesser players or players with something to prove - always has been.

He is the ultimate glass ceiling manager. The fa cup final was a huge example of this - one nil up in sweltering heat, Chelsea one goal away from likely throwing their cards in as they had won the league. He sat us back and did nothing as the yellow carded hibbert was targeted by malouda and co.

Same again in the Jelavic semi final Vs Liverpool..... They had nothing but he sat us back to defend a narrow lead against a side who weren't at the races and allowed them to get into a rhythm.

That Utd side was absolutely finished - them winning the league was like Pheidippides arriving in Athens to say we've won, and then keeling over stone dead. Scholes actually looked like it was 50/50 on whether he'd make it through 90 mins with both lungs intact by the end, Ferdinand, Rooney, Vidic - yesterday's men.

That dressing room needed to be lost, set on fire, and thrown in a bin but that takes time - and tbh was too big a job for anyone let alone Moyes. If anything he went in too soft because he thought he had more time than he did. e.g. Appointing Ryan Giggs as #2, a man who speaks with forked tongue, was a sop to the old guard and not something anyone would ever do if they were intent on cleaning house.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

That Utd side was absolutely finished - them winning the league was like Pheidippides arriving in Athens to say we've won, and then keeling over stone dead. Scholes actually looked like it was 50/50 on whether he'd make it through 90 mins with both lungs intact by the end, Ferdinand, Rooney, Vidic - yesterday's men.

That dressing room needed to be lost, set on fire, and thrown in a bin but that takes time - and tbh was too big a job for anyone let alone Moyes. If anything he went in too soft because he thought he had more time than he did. e.g. Appointing Ryan Giggs as #2, a man who speaks with forked tongue, was a sop to the old guard and not something anyone would ever do if they were intent on cleaning house.

Gigg was his biggest mistake, in my opinion. Backstabber supreme!

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

Did he though? Surrendered Vs one nil lead in the cup final by sitting back, then surrendered a one nil lead against an awful Liverpool performance in the semi final.

Despite commanding leads for west ham he does his best to throw away wins. Circle the wagons Moyes.

But they aren’t exactly playing in a similar way - they are going 3-0 up and, for various reasons, letting teams back in it.

We were down to the bare bones in that cup final, against the most expensive team in the world. Who knows how it could have gone if we had our first team.

 

[twoblue]

I think Moyes turning up and asking Robin Van Persie to play like Andy Carroll and signing Fellaini to replace Scholes whilst giving Rio Ferdinand Jagiielka instructions......whilst banning certain things from the canteen meant he lost the changing room.

fergies advice to Moyes was let the players lead you ..... He didn't have to change much but had to be a wrecking ball.

he can't manage big players.

Think ferguson advised him to keep the coaching staff in place which Moyes didn’t do.

 

[twoblue]

Eddie Howe. Graham Potter. Anyone ask for Wilder, Sherwood or Parker? Arteta shouts will be in the vault.

Clearly Moyes has two decades of largely decent premier league experience. I’m not even sure people are ask for him back, they are just reflecting on his time hear positively and glad he is doing well.
when you consider no one has bettered him since he left that is fair enough

 

[RhylBlue]

I made a post a while back saying Moyes' tenure as Everton manager looked better because subsequent managers have failed. I'd say he's further embellished his reputation after doing such a stellar job at West Ham. The only club he has really failed at is United. It was just too big of a move for him. I give him a pass for Sunderland as they were a shambles of a club while he was manager (and still are by most accounts).

 

[royalblue66]

He will cock up against a team they shouldn't, think they have Newcastle away next so wouldn't suprise me if they get beat

Fingers crossed.

 

[kenada_blue]

Half the blues hyping Moyes up now just because West Ham are doing well are almost certainly the same fans that would've wanted him sacked and replaced by Ian Holloway in 10-11!

I remember the Owen Coyle shouts too.

Glory days