2017/18 Dominic Calvert-Lewin

[Barnfred 55]

But here's a mad thought - what if they improve?

Thats so mad.

Are you Father Dougal?

 

[Barnfred 55]

I can't remember any of our players improving in recent times. Except Seamus

This is true actually. But look around and you see young players improving everywhere. Do you think it may have something to do with the coaches?

 

[Lanolin]

This is true actually. But look around and you see young players improving everywhere. Do you think it may have something to do with the coaches?

We've definitely had coaching issues recently, I think bringing a good coach as manager is the most important thing we can do this summer.

Another part of the problem (in my opinion) is people overrating the young players to start with. This means that even when some of them do improve, people don't notice it because they were overstating how good they were to begin with, if that makes sense? For me, Barkley improved massively as an all round player last season but because people had pegged him as some sort of absolute megastar they were disappointed when his improvement only made him a very good player, and so started saying he hadn't improved at all.

We've seen it with Galloway too. If anybody went back and watched his performances from a few seasons ago they'd see that there were massive flaws in his game and that sometimes he looked absolutely hopeless in all honesty, and yet there were people seriously stating that he was 'better than Stones' and 'world class'. Then when it turns out he absolutely isn't either of those things, they make out like he's had some sort of weird unfathomable decline. Holgate may be next in line for that, with people talking him up as if he's been absolutely superb whenever he's played and should be the first name on the team sheet, when the reality is he's just been alright really. Stones was far superior at the same age and yet people were giving him pelters.

Kenny is another who everybody insisted needed to start the season because he was brilliant - I recall arguing with someone on here last season who said he was like a clone of Coleman only better defensively(!) - but after watching him this year I'll be honest and say i'm not sure he'll ever make a PL full back.

Hopefully DCL, Davies, Holgate and the rest will improve and become top class players, if they do then we'll be a much happier bunch in a couple of years.

 

[CrustySack]

But here's a mad thought - what if they improve?

Nobody would be more happy than me if Dom and Tom improve and go on to be class premiership footballers. I think if we could fast forward 5 years we would see them both playing for a Leeds or Forest in the Championship. We did this with Barkley. We build our homegrown players up which is not a bad thing. There comes a point though were we have to accept their limits.

 

[GARY_EVERTONIAN]

Anyone here convinced with his credentials as a lw or left inside forward ??

 

[Barnfred 55]

We've definitely had coaching issues recently, I think bringing a good coach as manager is the most important thing we can do this summer.

Another part of the problem (in my opinion) is people overrating the young players to start with. This means that even when some of them do improve, people don't notice it because they were overstating how good they were to begin with, if that makes sense? For me, Barkley improved massively as an all round player last season but because people had pegged him as some sort of absolute megastar they were disappointed when his improvement only made him a very good player, and so started saying he hadn't improved at all.

We've seen it with Galloway too. If anybody went back and watched his performances from a few seasons ago they'd see that there were massive flaws in his game and that sometimes he looked absolutely hopeless in all honesty, and yet there were people seriously stating that he was 'better than Stones' and 'world class'. Then when it turns out he absolutely isn't either of those things, they make out like he's had some sort of weird unfathomable decline. Holgate may be next in line for that, with people talking him up as if he's been absolutely superb whenever he's played and should be the first name on the team sheet, when the reality is he's just been alright really. Stones was far superior at the same age and yet people were giving him pelters.

Kenny is another who everybody insisted needed to start the season because he was brilliant - I recall arguing with someone on here last season who said he was like a clone of Coleman only better defensively(!) - but after watching him this year I'll be honest and say i'm not sure he'll ever make a PL full back.

Hopefully DCL, Davies, Holgate and the rest will improve and become top class players, if they do then we'll be a much happier bunch in a couple of years.

I agree with a lot of that mate, although I do think you are over playing the extent to which we build our young players up. There is some of that on here and I agree there are some quite ridiculous comments at times, but the culprits are definitely the small minority. In my opinion, a much bigger issue on here is the number of people writing the young players off if they aren't the finished article by 20 or 21. And some of the abuse they get is just out of order in my opinion. They argue that the young inexperienced players shouldn't expect any different treatment to the seasoned veterans if they play poorly, but I don't think that's fair and neither does it help their confidence, which is probably already a bit fragile when they're stepping up a level.

I'm not sure whether you're a regular visitor to the youth players threads mate, but most of the regular posters in there are quite level headed about our youngsters, and the prospects of them making the breakthrough to the first team. We are in an unusual position at the moment in that we have an extraordinary number of young players come through the academy at the same time. This, coupled with the fact that in recent years the club has had a policy of buying in young players specifically to strengthen the development teams, means we have an unusually large number of young players kicking around the first team squad.

Now we also need to put this into perspective. This view is backed up by the fact this group has either won or been runner up in the U18 league 3 years running, and also won the U23 league last season. It's also borne out by the fact that we have 6/7 players regularly in the England U21 squad and had 5 players in the squad that won the U20 world cup last year. So these lads are amongst the best in the country in their age groups. None of this is any guarantee that they will go onto to become premier standard players of course, but it is a good starting point don't you think?

As regards Kenny, I was with the ones asking for him to be played at the start of the season and, had Koeman done so, the lads introduction to first team football would have been a lot easier. We needed somebody to fill in at right back until Coleman recovered. In my opinion Holgate is a centre half and shouldn't have been played out of position when we had a specialist coming through the system. Kenny was one of the stand out players in the U20 world cup, he was captain of the U23 league winning side, and he'd already had a couple of decent loan spells playing open age football. I felt he was ready. Don't get me wrong, had the club decided to bring in a seasoned experienced prem player like Zabaletta for instance, to fill in, I wouldn't have had an issue. in fact I would have applauded it. What I didn't agree with was bringing in a journeyman lower league standard player like we did with Martina. That was a dreadful decision and the fact that he's still getting in the match day squads now ahead of Kenny is nothing short of criminal. So yeah. Don't agree with you on that one mate.

I think where we do differ is how best to develop them now. is it best to loan them out or include them in our first team squad. Firstly, I think it's important to point out that, Holgate apart, none of them are ready for regular/automatic premier league starts, as has been the case this season for both Davies and DCL. So the first thing we need to do is to improve our starting XI in certain area's, so these youngsters become, at best, second string players. Of course, we also need to appoint a manager who is prepared to work with young players and has a record of bringing them through.

My personal belief with development, as you know, is that once a player reaches a certain level, he will not develop any further just by playing every week. To learn and develop, he needs to be challenged first and foremost, and he needs to be training and playing with and against quality players. Also, in the ideal world, I would prefer to keep this bunch of young players together. It's been evident this season that there is a togetherness and camaraderie about them that is sadly missing in the first team squad as a whole, and it would be great if we could bring that through.

There will be matches/opponents that suit certain players and I would start them in these games were possible, but the majority of their games will be introduction from the bench or starting cup games. The big issue I can see with this is can we accommodate so many at the same time?, and I'm not sure we can without European football. Injuries may play a part in that. But if we do decide certain players need a loan I would prefer this to be to a decent standard so either another Premier club or to the German or French first divisions. Perhaps the Dutch league to a team who has European football.

 

[MACCA75]

We've definitely had coaching issues recently, I think bringing a good coach as manager is the most important thing we can do this summer.

Another part of the problem (in my opinion) is people overrating the young players to start with. This means that even when some of them do improve, people don't notice it because they were overstating how good they were to begin with, if that makes sense? For me, Barkley improved massively as an all round player last season but because people had pegged him as some sort of absolute megastar they were disappointed when his improvement only made him a very good player, and so started saying he hadn't improved at all.

We've seen it with Galloway too. If anybody went back and watched his performances from a few seasons ago they'd see that there were massive flaws in his game and that sometimes he looked absolutely hopeless in all honesty, and yet there were people seriously stating that he was 'better than Stones' and 'world class'. Then when it turns out he absolutely isn't either of those things, they make out like he's had some sort of weird unfathomable decline. Holgate may be next in line for that, with people talking him up as if he's been absolutely superb whenever he's played and should be the first name on the team sheet, when the reality is he's just been alright really. Stones was far superior at the same age and yet people were giving him pelters.

Kenny is another who everybody insisted needed to start the season because he was brilliant - I recall arguing with someone on here last season who said he was like a clone of Coleman only better defensively(!) - but after watching him this year I'll be honest and say i'm not sure he'll ever make a PL full back.

Hopefully DCL, Davies, Holgate and the rest will improve and become top class players, if they do then we'll be a much happier bunch in a couple of years.

Tend to agree with this apart from the bit about Stones. He never was getting ‘pelters’ from the fans, I think we all thought he was really good with the potential to be excellent.
Just because people were (rightly) shouting at him to get rid of the ball one time v Spurs, doesn’t mean he wasn’t loved here.

Incidentally he seems way down the pecking order at City these days, I think he takes too many chances even for Pep’s liking.

 

[catcherintherye]

We've definitely had coaching issues recently, I think bringing a good coach as manager is the most important thing we can do this summer.

Another part of the problem (in my opinion) is people overrating the young players to start with. This means that even when some of them do improve, people don't notice it because they were overstating how good they were to begin with, if that makes sense? For me, Barkley improved massively as an all round player last season but because people had pegged him as some sort of absolute megastar they were disappointed when his improvement only made him a very good player, and so started saying he hadn't improved at all.

We've seen it with Galloway too. If anybody went back and watched his performances from a few seasons ago they'd see that there were massive flaws in his game and that sometimes he looked absolutely hopeless in all honesty, and yet there were people seriously stating that he was 'better than Stones' and 'world class'. Then when it turns out he absolutely isn't either of those things, they make out like he's had some sort of weird unfathomable decline. Holgate may be next in line for that, with people talking him up as if he's been absolutely superb whenever he's played and should be the first name on the team sheet, when the reality is he's just been alright really. Stones was far superior at the same age and yet people were giving him pelters.

Kenny is another who everybody insisted needed to start the season because he was brilliant - I recall arguing with someone on here last season who said he was like a clone of Coleman only better defensively(!) - but after watching him this year I'll be honest and say i'm not sure he'll ever make a PL full back.

Hopefully DCL, Davies, Holgate and the rest will improve and become top class players, if they do then we'll be a much happier bunch in a couple of years.

I think the elephant in the room re EFC is the development of players. The original post is worthwhile and the answer is several players under Moyes got better. Baines, Jagielka, Peinaar, Arteta, Cahill & Osman. All of these players improved at a similar time and were a similar age.

There has undoubtedly been an overhyping of our young players, which is also true of most teams. I remember being quite critical of Galloway strangely. However what cannot be denied, is our ability to bring through players from around 21-27 in terms of improvement has greatly reduced post Moyes and the early part of Martinez. All of Stones, Lukaku, Deulofeu and Barkley all hit a plateau under him as well. Galloway is a fine example as well, that while he was never in the same calibre of Stones, he was a solid left back at PL at 19 and currently can't get a game in the championship.

Young players go through ups and downs, but when it starts to become large groups of players it starts to be a coaching issue. While I don't think any of our young players are Rooney level megastars I am not having Davies, Calvert Lewin, Lookman etc are not decent prospects who if they improved under the right coach could not be effective Premier League players.

 

[Lanolin]

Tend to agree with this apart from the bit about Stones. He never was getting ‘pelters’ from the fans, I think we all thought he was really good with the potential to be excellent.
Just because people were (rightly) shouting at him to get rid of the ball one time v Spurs, doesn’t mean he wasn’t loved here.

Incidentally he seems way down the pecking order at City these days, I think he takes too many chances even for Pep’s liking.

He was definitely getting pelters, but it was mainly because he'd had the whole transfer saga. Same as Lukaku, there was an attitude that he needed bringing down a peg or two because he had the audacity to think that finishing 11th was probably not the best he could do so every time he made a mistake we magnified it to point out that he wasn't as good as he thought. Just look at the Holgate or Keane (hahahahaha) threads for loads of examples of people who claim they are (or were) better defensively than Stones. You're right that people loved him, but it was tough love I think.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Nobody would be more happy than me if Dom and Tom improve and go on to be class premiership footballers. I think if we could fast forward 5 years we would see them both playing for a Leeds or Forest in the Championship. We did this with Barkley. We build our homegrown players up which is not a bad thing. There comes a point though were we have to accept their limits.

Agreed. But do you really think that now is that time? Davies is still only 19 FFS.

Not saying that either will make it. Neither are ready for regular premier starts for a club with top 6 ambitions, and it's possible that they will ever be. But both are amongst the best players in the country in their age groups and with the right management who knows what will happen.

Championship in 5 years time may well end up as their level, but I just don't see how it helps anybody for people to keep on saying this now.

 

[MikeH72]

Nobody would be more happy than me if Dom and Tom improve and go on to be class premiership footballers. I think if we could fast forward 5 years we would see them both playing for a Leeds or Forest in the Championship. We did this with Barkley. We build our homegrown players up which is not a bad thing. There comes a point though were we have to accept their limits.

Surely that point is when they've got 2-4 full seasons under their belt though, like it was with Barkley.

 

[Lanolin]

I agree with a lot of that mate, although I do think you are over playing the extent to which we build our young players up. There is some of that on here and I agree there are some quite ridiculous comments at times, but the culprits are definitely the small minority. In my opinion, a much bigger issue on here is the number of people writing the young players off if they aren't the finished article by 20 or 21. And some of the abuse they get is just out of order in my opinion. They argue that the young inexperienced players shouldn't expect any different treatment to the seasoned veterans if they play poorly, but I don't think that's fair and neither does it help their confidence, which is probably already a bit fragile when they're stepping up a level.

I'm not sure whether you're a regular visitor to the youth players threads mate, but most of the regular posters in there are quite level headed about our youngsters, and the prospects of them making the breakthrough to the first team. We are in an unusual position at the moment in that we have an extraordinary number of young players come through the academy at the same time. This, coupled with the fact that in recent years the club has had a policy of buying in young players specifically to strengthen the development teams, means we have an unusually large number of young players kicking around the first team squad.

Now we also need to put this into perspective. This view is backed up by the fact this group has either won or been runner up in the U18 league 3 years running, and also won the U23 league last season. It's also borne out by the fact that we have 6/7 players regularly in the England U21 squad and had 5 players in the squad that won the U20 world cup last year. So these lads are amongst the best in the country in their age groups. None of this is any guarantee that they will go onto to become premier standard players of course, but it is a good starting point don't you think?

As regards Kenny, I was with the ones asking for him to be played at the start of the season and, had Koeman done so, the lads introduction to first team football would have been a lot easier. We needed somebody to fill in at right back until Coleman recovered. In my opinion Holgate is a centre half and shouldn't have been played out of position when we had a specialist coming through the system. Kenny was one of the stand out players in the U20 world cup, he was captain of the U23 league winning side, and he'd already had a couple of decent loan spells playing open age football. I felt he was ready. Don't get me wrong, had the club decided to bring in a seasoned experienced prem player like Zabaletta for instance, to fill in, I wouldn't have had an issue. in fact I would have applauded it. What I didn't agree with was bringing in a journeyman lower league standard player like we did with Martina. That was a dreadful decision and the fact that he's still getting in the match day squads now ahead of Kenny is nothing short of criminal. So yeah. Don't agree with you on that one mate.

I think where we do differ is how best to develop them now. is it best to loan them out or include them in our first team squad. Firstly, I think it's important to point out that, Holgate apart, none of them are ready for regular/automatic premier league starts, as has been the case this season for both Davies and DCL. So the first thing we need to do is to improve our starting XI in certain area's, so these youngsters become, at best, second string players. Of course, we also need to appoint a manager who is prepared to work with young players and has a record of bringing them through.

My personal belief with development, as you know, is that once a player reaches a certain level, he will not develop any further just by playing every week. To learn and develop, he needs to be challenged first and foremost, and he needs to be training and playing with and against quality players. Also, in the ideal world, I would prefer to keep this bunch of young players together. It's been evident this season that there is a togetherness and camaraderie about them that is sadly missing in the first team squad as a whole, and it would be great if we could bring that through.

There will be matches/opponents that suit certain players and I would start them in these games were possible, but the majority of their games will be introduction from the bench or starting cup games. The big issue I can see with this is can we accommodate so many at the same time?, and I'm not sure we can without European football. Injuries may play a part in that. But if we do decide certain players need a loan I would prefer this to be to a decent standard so either another Premier club or to the German or French first divisions. Perhaps the Dutch league to a team who has European football.

That all makes sense and is very fair.

Obviously people's views of players are subjective, that will always be the case. I also wanted Kenny to be given a chance and from what i'd seen at youth level I though he had the potential to be very good, but unfortunately I just haven't seen it at this level. I'd love to be proved wrong about him but to me he looks one paced and too slight. I honestly can't see a team in the PL that he'd be first choice right back for next season, and at 21, that's not ideal. I'm not for a second suggesting that you have to write players off if they're not outstanding at 21, but it's definitely coming towards 'make or break' age for players coming through the ranks where if you haven't made yourself a fixture there's a very good chance that you never will. You can't have a squad full of 23 year olds who you say still have potential, at some point you have to ask them to start delivering, particularly when there are other players of the same age and younger who are producing the goods.

My personal opinion is that we have a crop of good young players who can carve out good careers at this level, but I'm yet to see anything that tells me any of them have that x factor. I'm waiting for DCL to score 'that' goal, or even have 'that' near miss which makes you think yes he's really got it. I haven't seen it yet, and at 21 and with about 18 months in the first team that's slightly concerning. What I can never make clear enough though, is that if DCL goes on to be as good as Kone, Holgate as good as Lescott, and Davies as good as Osman, we should be pleased for them for having good PL careers not believing they've failed because they're not as good as Rooney.

 

[Barnfred 55]

He was definitely getting pelters, but it was mainly because he'd had the whole transfer saga. Same as Lukaku, there was an attitude that he needed bringing down a peg or two because he had the audacity to think that finishing 11th was probably not the best he could do so every time he made a mistake we magnified it to point out that he wasn't as good as he thought. Just look at the Holgate or Keane (hahahahaha) threads for loads of examples of people who claim they are (or were) better defensively than Stones. You're right that people loved him, but it was tough love I think.

I remember one game in Martinez last season. It was when the faithful had fallen out of love with him and he'd lost his place in the team. He came on as a second half sub. Been on the field 2 minutes and received the ball. He was looking to make a forward pass and there was nobody showing. Neither was he getting pressed by the opposing team. He stood still with the ball for what must have been 2/3 seconds before the whole Park End erupted in a chorus of god knows what. It certainly wasn't complimentary.

 

[MACCA75]

He was definitely getting pelters, but it was mainly because he'd had the whole transfer saga. Same as Lukaku, there was an attitude that he needed bringing down a peg or two because he had the audacity to think that finishing 11th was probably not the best he could do so every time he made a mistake we magnified it to point out that he wasn't as good as he thought. Just look at the Holgate or Keane (hahahahaha) threads for loads of examples of people who claim they are (or were) better defensively than Stones. You're right that people loved him, but it was tough love I think.

Ah yeah after the Chelsea transfer saga yeah.

 

[Big Fat Sam]

Still amazed by his miss against Stoke when he was literally stood on the goal line with the ball at a perfect height to simply knock into the net.