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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

hallamblue said:
There is no conspiracy. I agree they don't seem to get as many injuries. considering the high energy way they play. I was listening to the radio last night and they were talking about how Alberto Salazar was using testosterone on his own grown-up sons to see how much you could administer before you got flagged up by a drugs test, and how high testosterone levels help athletes recover much quicker from high energy activity. That got me wondering if such methods were being used anywhere in the football world.
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Very difficult to get away with under the bio passport. You could still probably use very minimal doses but you'd have to be absolutely consistent through the players career.... and they'd probably get popped after they left
 
hallamblue said:
What about blood doping? Could someone do that in football?
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Same problem. The average premier league player gets tested 4 times a year at random (that's the most of any sport in the uk) They have to tell the testers where they'll be for a 2 hour period every day for those tests. They can also get pulled after any game.

The tests these days are not just pass/fail, they track the relationship between 8 or so blood values over each test and use statistical analysis software to determine if any movement is natural or not. That's the basis of the passport.

If the computer flags an athlete they'll be invited to explain.

Again, consistent micro dosing MAY be able to get around it but then, of course, the benefits would be much lessened too

With that said, autologous transfusions (re transfusing your own blood to aid recovery) is still very difficult to detect. This works by extracting the blood at a time of high fitness and low fatigue, storing it and then reinfusing it when the athlete is in a period of high fatigue (think last week of the Tour). You can only detect that through either wildly different values in the blood samples and getting lucky in the timing of testing or by the presence of plasticisers (parts of the blood bag)... those have been found but nobody has been successfully banned from it.
 
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Disgruntledgoat said:
Same problem. The average premier league player gets tested 4 times a year at random (that's the most of any sport in the uk) They have to tell the testers where they'll be for a 2 hour period every day for those tests. They can also get pulled after any game.

The tests these days are not just pass/fail, they track the relationship between 8 or so blood values over each test and use statistical analysis software to determine if any movement is natural or not. That's the basis of the passport.

If the computer flags an athlete they'll be invited to explain.

Again, consistent micro dosing MAY be able to get around it but then, of course, the benefits would be much lessened too.
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It all points to one answer.....

The RS doping testers are in on it too!
 

Disgruntledgoat said:
Same problem. The average premier league player gets tested 4 times a year at random (that's the most of any sport in the uk) They have to tell the testers where they'll be for a 2 hour period every day for those tests. They can also get pulled after any game.

The tests these days are not just pass/fail, they track the relationship between 8 or so blood values over each test and use statistical analysis software to determine if any movement is natural or not. That's the basis of the passport.

If the computer flags an athlete they'll be invited to explain.

Again, consistent micro dosing MAY be able to get around it but then, of course, the benefits would be much lessened too

With that said, autologous transfusions (re transfusing your own blood to aid recovery) is still very difficult to detect. This works by extracting the blood at a time of high fitness and low fatigue, storing it and then reinfusing it when the athlete is in a period of high fatigue (think last week of the Tour). You can only detect that through either wildly different values in the blood samples and getting lucky in the timing of testing or by the presence of plasticisers (parts of the blood bag)... those have been found but nobody has been successfully banned from it.
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How many times do you reckon KdB or Salah are getting tested though - as four times a year would be nothing for a winning athlete or someone under suspicion. Should test them every weekend, like the winner gets done very day in the Grand Tours.

de Bruyne looked like an asthmatic ginger kid before Pep showed up at City - getting hooked after 60 mins breathing out his aris.
 
Black Belt Jones said:
How many times do you reckon KdB or Salah are getting tested though - as four times a year would be nothing for a winning athlete or someone under suspicion. Should test them every weekend, like the winner gets done very day in the Grand Tours.

de Bruyne looked like an asthmatic ginger kid before Pep showed up at City - getting hooked after 60 mins breathing out his aris.
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That 4 times is average for out of competition tests. They're all available for tests at games as well and the norm is to pull one from each side at random. In short, no idea how many times those two get tested. UKADA can (and do) conduct targeted testing where they have a tip off or suspicion, that's how Terry Newton and Jonathon Tiernen Locke got caught.

In truth, for the bio passport you can build a good baseline picture on one test pre-season and one test mid season. The fluctuations in values are compared to the athlete's own historical data, UKADA's all-sport database and the medical parameters built in to the system that flags anomolies.

I really don't think the kind of blood doping that you saw in cycling and Italian football in the 90s is possible anymore in a WADA governed sport. Where it exists you're talking either transfusions and/or microdosing. The transfusions are pretty effective for a week or so and the microdosing less so. Anti-doping is one of the areas I'd give the premier league credit for... Their athletes are tested at 200% the rate of the football league.
 
Disgruntledgoat said:
That 4 times is average for out of competition tests. They're all available for tests at games as well and the norm is to pull one from each side at random. In short, no idea how many times those two get tested. UKADA can (and do) conduct targeted testing where they have a tip off or suspicion, that's how Terry Newton and Jonathon Tiernen Locke got caught.

In truth, for the bio passport you can build a good baseline picture on one test pre-season and one test mid season. The fluctuations in values are compared to the athlete's own historical data, UKADA's all-sport database and the medical parameters built in to the system that flags anomolies.

I really don't think the kind of blood doping that you saw in cycling and Italian football in the 90s is possible anymore in a WADA governed sport. Where it exists you're talking either transfusions and/or microdosing. The transfusions are pretty effective for a week or so and the microdosing less so. Anti-doping is one of the areas I'd give the premier league credit for... Their athletes are tested at 200% the rate of the football league.
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That’s a lot of good info. Cheers.
 

Big_Duncs_Fod said:
Some proper clutching at straws in this thread.
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Guilty as charged m'lud. You have to admit it's interesting, though - the new coaching innovation to take the premiership by storm: go out and run yer bolex off lads for 90 minutes.
Wouldn't have thought that was viable with some of the limited players in the RS midfield.
 
Black Belt Jones said:
Guilty as charged m'lud. You have to admit it's interesting, though - the new coaching innovation to take the premiership by storm: go out and run yer bolex off lads for 90 minutes.
Wouldn't have thought that was viable with some of the limited players in the RS midfield.
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I think you are doing them an injustice, them limited players are keeping out the ' world's best midfielder ' Naby Keita after all....
 
Disgruntledgoat said:
That 4 times is average for out of competition tests. They're all available for tests at games as well and the norm is to pull one from each side at random. In short, no idea how many times those two get tested. UKADA can (and do) conduct targeted testing where they have a tip off or suspicion, that's how Terry Newton and Jonathon Tiernen Locke got caught.

In truth, for the bio passport you can build a good baseline picture on one test pre-season and one test mid season. The fluctuations in values are compared to the athlete's own historical data, UKADA's all-sport database and the medical parameters built in to the system that flags anomolies.

I really don't think the kind of blood doping that you saw in cycling and Italian football in the 90s is possible anymore in a WADA governed sport. Where it exists you're talking either transfusions and/or microdosing. The transfusions are pretty effective for a week or so and the microdosing less so. Anti-doping is one of the areas I'd give the premier league credit for... Their athletes are tested at 200% the rate of the football league.
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It's estimated that 70% of athletes competing at any given event are on PEDs. Drug testing rarely finds a positive sample. Most findings and banning come from a whistle blower coming forward.

Drug testers can only find what they are specifically looking for and will only find a positive sample if someone has been very sloppy.

To think the sport with the most money involved won't have similar problems with cheating as all.other sports is naive.
 

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