ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

[MikeH72]

Ballack went from looking one of the top players in the world to being a squad player at Chelsea though, didn't live up to his billing.

Ballack was brilliant for Chelsea, they love him there.

 

[bluestevon]

The best manager they've had in my lifetime was Benitez, then Houllier. Both were hounded out in the end but both lacked the charisma of Klopp. Benitez understood though the need to have a squad, rotate and plan for the entirety of a season when he would generally do well at the back end. He basically dragged them into the 21st century.

You are spot on about Klopp. He will front load at the start of season's. They didn't lose the league in January, it had already gone. it had gone around West Ham & Bournemouth as I said and they mocked. They hadn't built up enough of a lead. This isn't just a common sense view, also several fitness coaches of top teams have said the way he approaches season will see them massively short come the end.

I also think they are going to become increasingly liable to injuries. Make no mistake this is not bad luck. Henderson and Lallana have pushed worryingly close to the edge most games. Henderson's knock was meant to be a 2 week injury yet here he is 6 weeks later seeing a specialist. The idiots rushed back Mane, Firmino and Coutinho from international matches and will cry when the overloading of games in a short space of time burns them out. Mane won't play again this season. I suspect Lallana, Lovren and Henderson will continue to be injury prone.

He is used to playing in a German league that when he won it was very weak (as soon as Bayern got their act together his Dortmund team fell away). They also had a winter break, and he almost attacked both halves of the season. It's clear the bottom sides have worked him out and it's only a mater of time until the top teams show them the same respect and Mourinho them. Beyond blowing teams away I don't see much they have.

They defeated us well, but lets be clear they got their best player Coutinho to ruthlessly exploit the lack of experience of the two lads on the right side of our defence. Had Coleman been playing, I find it hard to see them scoring any of the 3 goals they score. We probably win that game in an ugly 1-0 game like lots of others have done there.

Time is ticking for them. It will all end up blowing up as it did for Dortmund, the question is how quickly it happens and how severe it will be.

Really good points there mate.

Will add a couple of other things to it as well, they trumpeted the lad they got on a free from Germany as one of the best cb's in the league, based on a good couple of months and when he started breaking down with injuries, they ignored that there was all that about him being injury prone and missing games with little niggles from his time in Germany, if you like, he has a reputation as a bit of a fanny - there's a good reason he was available on a free - he's Sturridge mark 2.

Also when players in a Klopp system start to pick up a knock here and there, it will only ever become progressively worse, he puts a huge strain on players, and once they start to break down due to that, then they will never be fully over it and will just become injury prone

Can see it if you look at how many Dortmund players in their mid 20's (or more accurately - after a couple of seasons working under Klopps system) seemed to become alarmingly prone to picking up multiple injuries per season, and even after they left it followed them around and it increases over time.

Hummels - 18 separate injuries from 14/15 season to this
Gundogan - 16 separate injuries in the same time period
Subotic - 11 in the same period
Reuss - 21 injuries in the same period of time
Gotze - 11 in that period (in his final year at Dortmund though he had 7 separate injuries)
Bender - 21 separate injuries since 14/15
Sokratis - 18 in that time frame

Soon as they have played a couple of seasons under Klopps system, the players literally started to break down, 3 of those 7 above are all but finished at top level now due to persistent fitness issues whilst still in their 20's (and this is by no means a biased sample as just took 7 high profile players who played multiple seasons under Klopp)

Yes obviously there is exceptions to the rule - like Lewandowski for example, but some players are just naturally very very resilient.

 

[bluestevon]

Ballack was brilliant for Chelsea, they love him there.

I know they do mate, still for me, he wasn't a patch on the player he looked at Leverskusen when he looked the best midfielder arguably in the world.

 

[nsno-chris]

Really good points there mate.

Will add a couple of other things to it as well, they trumpeted the lad they got on a free from Germany as one of the best cb's in the league, based on a good couple of months and when he started breaking down with injuries, they ignored that there was all that about him being injury prone and missing games with little niggles from his time in Germany, if you like, he has a reputation as a bit of a fanny - there's a good reason he was available on a free - he's Sturridge mark 2.

Also when players in a Klopp system start to pick up a knock here and there, it will only ever become progressively worse, he puts a huge strain on players, and once they start to break down due to that, then they will never be fully over it and will just become injury prone

Can see it if you look at how many Dortmund players in their mid 20's (or more accurately - after a couple of seasons working under Klopps system) seemed to become alarmingly prone to picking up multiple injuries per season, and even after they left it followed them around and it increases over time.

Hummels - 18 separate injuries from 14/15 season to this
Gundogan - 16 separate injuries in the same time period
Subotic - 11 in the same period
Reuss - 21 injuries in the same period of time
Gotze - 11 in that period (in his final year at Dortmund though he had 7 separate injuries)
Bender - 21 separate injuries since 14/15
Sokratis - 18 in that time frame

Soon as they have played a couple of seasons under Klopps system, the players literally started to break down, 3 of those 7 above are all but finished at top level now due to persistent fitness issues whilst still in their 20's (and this is by no means a biased sample as just took 7 high profile players who played multiple seasons under Klopp)

Yes obviously there is exceptions to the rule - like Lewandowski for example, but some players are just naturally very very resilient.

That is scary injury records. You can see the same of pattern emerging at the RS

 

[Raino85]

Really good points there mate.

Will add a couple of other things to it as well, they trumpeted the lad they got on a free from Germany as one of the best cb's in the league, based on a good couple of months and when he started breaking down with injuries, they ignored that there was all that about him being injury prone and missing games with little niggles from his time in Germany, if you like, he has a reputation as a bit of a fanny - there's a good reason he was available on a free - he's Sturridge mark 2.

Also when players in a Klopp system start to pick up a knock here and there, it will only ever become progressively worse, he puts a huge strain on players, and once they start to break down due to that, then they will never be fully over it and will just become injury prone

Can see it if you look at how many Dortmund players in their mid 20's (or more accurately - after a couple of seasons working under Klopps system) seemed to become alarmingly prone to picking up multiple injuries per season, and even after they left it followed them around and it increases over time.

Hummels - 18 separate injuries from 14/15 season to this
Gundogan - 16 separate injuries in the same time period
Subotic - 11 in the same period
Reuss - 21 injuries in the same period of time
Gotze - 11 in that period (in his final year at Dortmund though he had 7 separate injuries)
Bender - 21 separate injuries since 14/15
Sokratis - 18 in that time frame

Soon as they have played a couple of seasons under Klopps system, the players literally started to break down, 3 of those 7 above are all but finished at top level now due to persistent fitness issues whilst still in their 20's (and this is by no means a biased sample as just took 7 high profile players who played multiple seasons under Klopp)

Yes obviously there is exceptions to the rule - like Lewandowski for example, but some players are just naturally very very resilient.

You could add the guy that went to Madrid then liverpool to that list, i tihnk he was turkish centre mid. Cant remember his name

 

[bluestevon]

You could add the guy that went to Madrid then liverpool to that list, i tihnk he was turkish centre mid. Cant remember his name

Sahin? aye a perma crock now, 10 injuries and 98 games missed in the past 3 seasons

 

[bluestevon]

That is scary injury records. You can see the same of pattern emerging at the RS

Oh aye mate - the sample range is large enough in terms of players and over the amount of years to remove any chance of it being a coincidence and for it to instead be a clear pattern

 

[Saint Domingo]

Yes thats true.

https://audioboom.com/posts/5781340-neil-atkinson Thats the link. Without trying to destroy his argument (easy to do) what I find curious is he waits until after the derby to start shouting his mouth off. "No Everton player gets in our team". "Everton are stuck on an island" "Everton are 12 players away from being able to compete with the top 6" "Everton are miles away from Liverpool" "it doesn't matter if we concede less goals, all their defenders are still better" "even if they finish in the top 6, they are still not good enough for the top 6" "Everton haven't had a good player since Limpar" etc

The arguments are completely stupid, as I said I don't need to point out the ridiculousness of each one. However what is curious is this is not a stupid man, or a man who's unable to come to a fair and balanced perspective. He isn't just your standard Kopite goon, yet talking about Everton, having beaten them a few days earlier reduces him to that. You can hear from the tone of his voice, that his head has completely gone. He's making no sense.

See how he tone of voice changes when it comes to the subject of their former player Collymore suggesting Everton may be able to overtake Liverpool. He just loses the plot. You can hear the anger. He even states "I wasn't rude in response then, but I'll be rude about it now". He also states that it's important for Kopites to start adopting this rudeness henceforth. By Rudeness (it is rude) he also means disillusionment, bitterness and anger.

For him winning a derby gave him an excuse to let out the fear he is feeling, the mask slipped. I've never seen a Kopite so wound up by an article suggesting Everton might be doing ok. As I said it's indicative of the fear that is lurking underneath currently. Ok it hasn't translated to recruitment of players, league position or ground progress at the speed we would like or they fear at a surface level, but underneath nagging away at them is the knowledge that if Moshiri is serious, you are looking at a game changing moment.

What Atkinson does in this interview will be symbolic of what they will start to do. Use isolated examples where possible to try to assert the traditional order is still in existence, irrespective of the concrete evidence faced with. Any Kopites who don't will be outed and attacked. -Everton concede less goals than them- "their defence is rubbish Klopp just players more offensively."- Everton's have a higher goalscorer-" It's not Klopp's game to have a top goalscorer, we wouldn't want him". Everton get a superior ground- "A ground isn't that important anyway, what matters is league position".

There will be a hardening around Klopp. They are panicking though. You can hear it. Just think how much it will be amplified if we have a positive summer window.

They are all clinging onto what they thought was a universal truth 'Klopp is a world class manager'. They've slowly come to the realisation that FSG are not interested in competing with the big 3. FSG got burned by successive managers inane transfer dealings and poor performance (how did Dalglish and Rodgers with Suarez and Gerrard in their team finish behind Moyes' Everton twice?!) and are now very reluctant just to bow to fans demands. They bailed them out of certain administration, have taken an absolute hit on transfer losses, have financed part of the ground expansion at eye watering prices. They're not interested in giving any more to a club that wastes so much money.

With no world class players left (after any good ones have all been sold) they're now clinging to their last branch of hope that Klopp is a world class manager and will take lesser players to the top. They're now in a situation where that is on a knife edge. It will be two seasons without a trophy, finals have been lost, big semi finals lost, transfers have been just ok. If he scrapes them into top 4 they will cling onto him as saviour for a bit longer. If he doesn't in a season when Mourinho and Guardiola are finding their feet then this illusion will shatter.

They are starting to look at us with the superior academy, plans for a superior stadium, and are starting to realise we may have means in the future to challenge under Moshiri that they don't have under FSG.

They have been in long term decline since 2009, they refuse to accept it though clinging onto short term lifts like Suarez and now Klopp. If Klopp fails though where do they go? The squad is getting worse and worse to the point where 1 in 3 Coutinho is now their best player, he was in the support cast as recently as 2013. Their run in really is crucial, if Klopp can deliver CL it may halt the slide, if he doesn't what do they try next? We're on the up meanwhile and it's hacking them off.

 

[nsno-chris]

Oh aye mate - the sample range is large enough in terms of players and over the amount of years to remove any chance of it being a coincidence and for it to instead be a clear pattern

Lallana seems to be struggling, mane and Coutinho have struggled to make swift returns along with Henderson. The defence has been an absolute sham with picking up knocks.

It's only really like Clyne and Milner who seem to be injury free

 

[MikeH72]

Lallana seems to be struggling, mane and Coutinho have struggled to make swift returns along with Henderson. The defence has been an absolute sham with picking up knocks.

It's only really like Clyne and Milner who seem to be injury free

Danny Ings has played about 20 minutes under Klopp and he's spent 2 years out injured.

 

[Raino85]

Oh aye mate - the sample range is large enough in terms of players and over the amount of years to remove any chance of it being a coincidence and for it to instead be a clear pattern

Surely this is something Kloppo and his back room staff would of picked up on though and are working on 2 major things
1) No risk of burnout and tired legs midway through the season to avoid a mid season slump due to no winter break
2) improved training and recovery methods to avoid injurys and ruin players like you have really well pointed out.

If this has been pointed out on a forum then surely its something they have picked on and will improve?

 

[Saint Domingo]

Danny Ings has played about 20 minutes under Klopp and he's spent 2 years out injured.

I'm not sure Klopp can be blamed for that one it was an ACL. As usual it hit probably their worst player whilst we had our record signing and best defender screwed over long term by an ACL and a double leg break.

 

[bluestevon]

Lallana seems to be struggling, mane and Coutinho have struggled to make swift returns along with Henderson. The defence has been an absolute sham with picking up knocks.

It's only really like Clyne and Milner who seem to be injury free

Henderson has so far been out for over 40 days with what they described as a bruised heel in training, and still looks no closer to returning to training, something a little bit fishy going on there.

 

[bluestevon]

Surely this is something Kloppo and his back room staff would of picked up on though and are working on 2 major things
1) No risk of burnout and tired legs midway through the season to avoid a mid season slump due to no winter break
2) improved training and recovery methods to avoid injurys and ruin players like you have really well pointed out.

If this has been pointed out on a forum then surely its something they have picked on and will improve?

All managers have flaws mate, and very few of them ever seem to act to get rid of that flaw.

Just from the outside - Klopp favours a small squad and little rotation - in order that he can drill it into the first team his pressing tactics, IF he rotates then it simply won't be as effective as the players won't be as cohesive together

As for the training, it has to be intense for that style of play (less intense training = less effective at it in game)

My guess with Klopp is - the player injury breakdowns that come with the system in an acceptable price for the results it has gotten him over his career so far. it also may explain his preference to sign early 20's players or bring them through the academy etc, less wear and tear on them so can maybe eek another season or two out of them before they start to break down physically.

 

[jackyboy]

They've lost their heads over us. Its not been done in the manner I thought, but you can tel by the tone in their voice they are massively irritated by us. It won't be long until they are scared. Did you hear Atkinson's post derby interview?

I have now pal, cheers for the link.

I think when we next win a derby you will really start to see an implosion. Let alone if we have a good summer transfer window.