England v Hungary

[Sarnia Kevin]

What amazed me was the way England spent vast periods in the game passing the ball between the defense and midfield in their own half! instead of getting up the field and attacking Hungary's goal. Do that keep the ball nonsense when you're a few goals ahead and assured of a victory, England could have lost it last night.

 

[Methuselah]

I agree. They need another plan when a team defends like that. DCL would have given them a target. They need other ways of playing.

I was shouting at the television when the defenders and the midfielders were passing backwards at every opportunity. It sent shivers down my back and reminded me of the worst dark moments of last season. A team that just didn’t know how to break down in an opposition.

The trouble is that even when we get wide, level with the penalty area, there is no point in crossing it as we have no one in the penalty area. Watching the game, I made a point of noting how many England players were in the penalty area when there was a chance of a cross from open play. Apart from set pieces, the most I counted was one. Marked by three or four defenders, so it is not surprising that very few crosses come into the opposition box. On several occasions an England wide player looked up, saw there was no one in the penalty area, so passed it back. It didn't help that Kane had an awful game. The 5 out of 10 that the Telegraph gave him was overly generous. Taking Grealish off must be the worst decision by a manager this season.

 

[Bluestar]

What amazed me was the way England spent vast periods in the game passing the ball between the defense and midfield in their own half! instead of getting up the field and attacking Hungary's goal. Do that keep the ball nonsense when you're a few goals ahead and assured of a victory, England could have lost it last night.

It was so last season Everton.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Southgate is a classic example of a lucky manager IMO. While he has got the team to the semi-finals of the WC and the finals of the Euros, in both tournaments he has been pretty fortunate in the teams he's been drawn against to get there. If you look back on the past four seasons we have played a top 10 ranked team (plus Germany and the Netherlands) 17 times. We've won 3 of those games (1 against Belgium, 1 against Denmark, and 1 against Germany). By contrast, we've lost 9 of those games, so it's probably a decent argument that had we been drawn against a top 10 team in either of the last two tournaments we would have lost to them, as we did in both games against Belgium in the WC. In the Euros we beat a Danish team who were shorn of their best player, and a German team that is in huge transition.

The "golden generation" were pilloried for going out of tournaments to Brazil, Portugal (twice on penalties), and Germany. Maybe if they'd had some of the luck Southgate has enjoyed. Instead, he has yet to play Portugal or Argentina, and has not managed to beat Brazil, France, Italy, or Spain in 5 games.

 

[Kurt.]

Southgate is a classic example of a lucky manager IMO. While he has got the team to the semi-finals of the WC and the finals of the Euros, in both tournaments he has been pretty fortunate in the teams he's been drawn against to get there. If you look back on the past four seasons we have played a top 10 ranked team (plus Germany and the Netherlands) 17 times. We've won 3 of those games (1 against Belgium, 1 against Denmark, and 1 against Germany). By contrast, we've lost 9 of those games, so it's probably a decent argument that had we been drawn against a top 10 team in either of the last two tournaments we would have lost to them, as we did in both games against Belgium in the WC. In the Euros we beat a Danish team who were shorn of their best player, and a German team that is in huge transition.

The "golden generation" were pilloried for going out of tournaments to Brazil, Portugal (twice on penalties), and Germany. Maybe if they'd had some of the luck Southgate has enjoyed. Instead, he has yet to play Portugal or Argentina, and has not managed to beat Brazil, France, Italy, or Spain in 5 games.

The underlying problem, whether people on here want to hear it or not, is that England just aren’t good enough. It’s really that simple.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The underlying problem, whether people on here want to hear it or not, is that England just aren’t good enough. It’s really that simple.

We're a decent team but 3 wins in 17 games against nations of a similar stature shows our status at the moment.

 

[Kurt.]

We're a decent team but 3 wins in 17 games against nations of a similar stature shows our status at the moment.

With respect, 3 wins in 17 would suggest you not being of a similar stature.

 

[MikeH72]

Southgate is a classic example of a lucky manager IMO. While he has got the team to the semi-finals of the WC and the finals of the Euros, in both tournaments he has been pretty fortunate in the teams he's been drawn against to get there. If you look back on the past four seasons we have played a top 10 ranked team (plus Germany and the Netherlands) 17 times. We've won 3 of those games (1 against Belgium, 1 against Denmark, and 1 against Germany). By contrast, we've lost 9 of those games, so it's probably a decent argument that had we been drawn against a top 10 team in either of the last two tournaments we would have lost to them, as we did in both games against Belgium in the WC. In the Euros we beat a Danish team who were shorn of their best player, and a German team that is in huge transition.

The "golden generation" were pilloried for going out of tournaments to Brazil, Portugal (twice on penalties), and Germany. Maybe if they'd had some of the luck Southgate has enjoyed. Instead, he has yet to play Portugal or Argentina, and has not managed to beat Brazil, France, Italy, or Spain in 5 games.

He is without doubt a crap manager.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He is without doubt a crap manager.

It reminds me of this study from several years ago, which showed that we rate people much higher for appearing to do well in easy circumstances than we do people for doing more modestly in less challenging circumstances.

“Across all our studies, the results suggest that experts take high performance as evidence of high ability and do not sufficiently discount it by the ease with which that performance was achieved,”

Inflated Applicants: Attribution Errors in Performance Evaluation by Professionals - Article - Faculty & Research - Harvard Business School

www.hbs.edu

 

[Billy Dean]

Southgate is a classic example of a lucky manager IMO. While he has got the team to the semi-finals of the WC and the finals of the Euros, in both tournaments he has been pretty fortunate in the teams he's been drawn against to get there. If you look back on the past four seasons we have played a top 10 ranked team (plus Germany and the Netherlands) 17 times. We've won 3 of those games (1 against Belgium, 1 against Denmark, and 1 against Germany). By contrast, we've lost 9 of those games, so it's probably a decent argument that had we been drawn against a top 10 team in either of the last two tournaments we would have lost to them, as we did in both games against Belgium in the WC. In the Euros we beat a Danish team who were shorn of their best player, and a German team that is in huge transition.

The "golden generation" were pilloried for going out of tournaments to Brazil, Portugal (twice on penalties), and Germany. Maybe if they'd had some of the luck Southgate has enjoyed. Instead, he has yet to play Portugal or Argentina, and has not managed to beat Brazil, France, Italy, or Spain in 5 games.

He's definitely had luck but he has also done an excellent job and improved the team. He's a limited manager but I think it's a bit harsh to denigrate the job he's done. England have had lucky draws in the past and not made any use of them, e.g. Iceland in 2016 and not being able win a very poor group that year, the "EASY" group in 2010. In 1990 England also didn't have the most difficult of draws.

He's blooded a lot of young players and banished the sense of entitlement that has gone with previous teams. He's professionalised a lot behind the scenes in terms of backroom staff etc. He's also shown good leadership off the pitch.

If you're someone who thinks this England group should automatically be winning trophies then yes maybe he's not good enough. But I think this group still has some limitations, mostly in midfield, that stop it from being considered one of the world's top teams like France or Italy.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He's definitely had luck but he has also done an excellent job and improved the team. He's a limited manager but I think it's a bit harsh to denigrate the job he's done. England have had lucky draws in the past and not made any use of them, e.g. Iceland in 2016 and not being able win a very poor group that year, the "EASY" group in 2010. In 1990 England also didn't have the most difficult of draws.

He's blooded a lot of young players and banished the sense of entitlement that has gone with previous teams. He's professionalised a lot behind the scenes in terms of backroom staff etc. He's also shown good leadership off the pitch.

If you're someone who thinks this England group should automatically be winning trophies then yes maybe he's not good enough. But I think this group still has some limitations, mostly in midfield, that stop it from being considered one of the world's top teams like France or Italy.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that, by and large, his England teams have beaten teams that 9 times out of 10 you would back them to beat (eg Poland and Hungary). His England teams have, by and large, lost to teams that are also ranked in the top 10 of the FIFA rankings (eg Italy and Belgium). Now it just so happens that doing this has allowed the team to reach the final of the Euros (at home) and the semis of the WC. I'm just saying that this reflects less on his capabilities as a coach and more on good fortune with the draw.

I mean if Everton beat a bunch of Championship sides to reach the FA Cup final you'd look less favourably on that than if we beat Real Madrid, Chelsea, and PSG to win the Champions League, yet in both cases, a trophy is a trophy.

For me, he has been about par for the course so far.

 

[Billy Dean]

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that, by and large, his England teams have beaten teams that 9 times out of 10 you would back them to beat (eg Poland and Hungary). His England teams have, by and large, lost to teams that are also ranked in the top 10 of the FIFA rankings (eg Italy and Belgium). Now it just so happens that doing this has allowed the team to reach the final of the Euros (at home) and the semis of the WC. I'm just saying that this reflects less on his capabilities as a coach and more on good fortune with the draw.

I mean if Everton beat a bunch of Championship sides to reach the FA Cup final you'd look less favourably on that than if we beat Real Madrid, Chelsea, and PSG to win the Champions League, yet in both cases, a trophy is a trophy.

For me, he has been about par for the course so far.

Yes that's true. Which is in itself an achievement for an England manager. I would consider his best results the win in Spain and win over Croatia in 2018-19 and the Belgium win last year which was a bit lucky. Also Germany in the euros was a monkey off our back despite the fact they weren't at their best.