Everton v West Brom. Sat 24th Aug. @ 15.00.

[billycopper]

For what it's worth i just caught the extended highlights on the OS.

After reading all the comments previously I thought we were going to be pretty poor, but finishing aside I thought we looked ok. On another day we could easily have won 1-0, 2-0 even.

I agree. It wasn't a bore draw. We easily filled 5 minutes with all the chances and I don't think Steve Clarke would have complained if they'd lost 2-0. The passing looked sharp, especially Barkley and we weren't afraid to shoot. It just wouldn't go in. One of the highlights for me was Jags finding Fellaini with the cross. In the past I think he would have just aimed for the far post and hoped that someone got on the end of it. Jelavic could have reacted quicker to connect with Coleman's cross and to get a toe on Barkley's shot though.

 

[billycopper]

I couldn't understand Billy Liar saying that in that press conference. For me BK knows that the name of the game at Everton for any manager is to do exactly what Moyes did: keep it respectable with good top half finishes that pacify fans' frustrations to an extent and allow him and his fellow gangsters to keep their hands out of their pockets. To saddle Martinez with any more expectation was just, IMO, BK being BK when 'lights, camera, action' is called out. I dont think he seriously expects it and wont be arsed if it isn't reached as long as fans aren't giving him grief.

As for loss of cash/league placings: only if it's a couple of seasons out of the top 6/7 will it have an effect on policy (be it fees charged other clubs for our players or BK's attitude to the manager), and that's not what I'm saying will be accepted. I'm saying a season to bed in with a bare top half finish (9th/10th place) wont signal anything significant.

I think Bill was trying to sell the appointment as an upgrade, rather than losing a relatively successful manager to one of the biggest clubs in the world and replacing him with somebody who had just been relegated. Moyes promised that we wouldn't go down, so Martinez had to better that for us to be seen to be making progress.

I don't think that our expectations will change. We still want to be in contention for the European places and we want to do well in the cups. Obviously, Roberto now knows what it takes to win a trophy. And, if we did reach Europe, I think we'd be much better equipped to deal with it under the Spaniard.

Martinez has got it right so far, as far as I'm concerned. He's not acted like Rodgers and decided that he needs to replace half the playing staff. He's realised that we just need a few flourishes, some variation and a touch more quality to move forward.

 

[davek]

I think Bill was trying to sell the appointment as an upgrade, rather than losing a relatively successful manager to one of the biggest clubs in the world and replacing him with somebody who had just been relegated. Moyes promised that we wouldn't go down, so Martinez had to better that for us to be seen to be making progress.

I don't think that our expectations will change. We still want to be in contention for the European places and we want to do well in the cups. Obviously, Roberto now knows what it takes to win a trophy. And, if we did reach Europe, I think we'd be much better equipped to deal with it under the Spaniard.

Martinez has got it right so far, as far as I'm concerned. He's not acted like Rodgers and decided that he needs to replace half the playing staff. He's realised that we just need a few flourishes, some variation and a touch more quality to move forward.

Agreed.

 

[paulbefc]

I couldn't understand Billy Liar saying that in that press conference. For me BK knows that the name of the game at Everton for any manager is to do exactly what Moyes did: keep it respectable with good top half finishes that pacify fans' frustrations to an extent and allow him and his fellow gangsters to keep their hands out of their pockets. To saddle Martinez with any more expectation was just, IMO, BK being BK when 'lights, camera, action' is called out. I dont think he seriously expects it and wont be arsed if it isn't reached as long as fans aren't giving him grief.

As for loss of cash/league placings: only if it's a couple of seasons out of the top 6/7 will it have an effect on policy (be it fees charged other clubs for our players or BK's attitude to the manager), and that's not what I'm saying will be accepted. I'm saying a season to bed in with a bare top half finish (9th/10th place) wont signal anything significant.

It may not to you, but it will to the wider footballing world. It will signal a decline and not a gradual one. Our top players will leave. That will happen. There's no getting around it. We might hold on to Baines and Fellaini this summer due to where we are. They and Kevin Mirallas will leave next year if we are tenth. Take them out of our squad and look compare them to Liverpool's, Spurs' and Arsenal's and try and say we're realistically challenging them the next season. We will then have less money and a lesser eye for talent to replace them.

Moyes allowed us not to feel the pinch as our transfer budgets went from next to nothing down to negative spends. We will feel the pinch now. If we finish 10th we will feel it all the more.

The bottom line is, 10th is not acceptable and will hurt us in the long term. 7th or 8th is manageable, but rising more than a couple of league placings at this end of the league on our budget is wishful thinking now Moyes has gone. We don't have a pot to piss in and we can't assume there's a reserve of cash to fill the hole in prize money and not to mention probable TV money.

 

[davek]

It may not to you, but it will to the wider footballing world. It will signal a decline and not a gradual one. Our top players will leave. That will happen. There's no getting around it. We might hold on to Baines and Fellaini this summer due to where we are. They and Kevin Mirallas will leave next year if we are tenth. Take them out of our squad and look compare them to Liverpool's, Spurs' and Arsenal's and try and say we're realistically challenging them the next season. We will then have less money and a lesser eye for talent to replace them.

Moyes allowed us not to feel the pinch as our transfer budgets went from next to nothing down to negative spends. We will feel the pinch now. If we finish 10th we will feel it all the more.

The bottom line is, 10th is not acceptable and will hurt us in the long term. 7th or 8th is manageable, but rising more than a couple of league placings at this end of the league on our budget is wishful thinking now Moyes has gone. We don't have a pot to piss in and we can't assume there's a reserve of cash to fill the hole in prize money and not to mention probable TV money.

Paul, quality players dont join Everton to win things or even qualify for Europe. They join us because we pay a decent wage and the club has a good record as a stepping stone to other clubs who are winning things. The fact we haven't qualified for Europe for a few years hasn't led to an exodus in players. If they go, they go because the club decides they want the cash for them. One season at 10th rather than 6th wont make a ha'porth of difference to that.

 

[scam]

I feel less bad today. There were positives and there were negatives. If the manager is any good he'll be working out what to do about it. Who's looking good and who's not. That's football and he's getting paid to do it. He might feel let down by certain performances on the day, his own included. But you pick yourself up and start again.

 

[paulbefc]

Paul, quality players dont join Everton to win things or even qualify for Europe. They join us because we pay a decent wage and the club has a good record as a stepping stone to other clubs who are winning things. The fact we haven't qualified for Europe for a few years hasn't led to an exodus in players. If they go, they go because the club decides they want the cash for them. One season at 10th rather than 6th wont make a ha'porth of difference to that.

Ridiculous. Of course the fact we are always around the european spots is a factor and I'm done explaining why it is. And why are we able to offer a good wage? Due to the fact we're making good prize/TV money and challenging at the top end of the league. We're on a knife edge though. Take millions out of our coffers and we'll suffer. There's no getting around that.

 

[harry]

I think we are desperate for a striker who can control a ball and not wander offside all the time (hopefully Kone) and a goalie who has some composure and doesn't see his arse of every back pass and jus Webb it forward. Also agree with others about the pace, we need to do things quicker.

 

[davek]

Ridiculous. Of course the fact we are always around the european spots is a factor and I'm done explaining why it is. And why are we able to offer a good wage? Due to the fact we're making good prize/TV money and challenging at the top end of the league. We're on a knife edge though. Take millions out of our coffers and we'll suffer. There's no getting around that.

You haven't sustained that fundamental point as to why spending one season at 10th is going to revolutionize the way we operate and change our relationship with quality players staying/arriving. You're vastly overestimating the outcome.

 

[paulbefc]

You haven't sustained that fundamental point as to why spending one season at 10th is going to revolutionize the way we operate and change our relationship with quality players staying/arriving. You're vastly overestimating the outcome.

I think the point that needs backing up is the idea that if we slip down to tenth, below God knows who, with all the financial implications and our players getting off, we'll be fine and will be challenging for europe next year as your earlier post seems to suggest is realistic. It really isn't as teams today don't do that without big investment.

 

[flowboy]

Ridiculous. Of course the fact we are always around the european spots is a factor and I'm done explaining why it is. And why are we able to offer a good wage? Due to the fact we're making good prize/TV money and challenging at the top end of the league. We're on a knife edge though. Take millions out of our coffers and we'll suffer. There's no getting around that.

The Premier League prize money was something like a difference of £2m between 6th and 10th last season, if I'm reading the source I've used correctly. There may be other revenue involved for the difference between 6th and 10th that I'm unaware of (TV broadcast pot?).

There's other potential commercial advantages for the finishing sixth (but still not qualifying for Europe), but I don't think Everton commercial department has ever been as slick as it could have been exploiting those for higher revenue.

Maybe Roberto Martinez can help with that. The loan signing wonder kid from Barca might tweak a lot of interest in Latin American/Asia-China team, for shirts, merchandise and booking more live games. If followed by attractive play and some good results, and perhaps some results against other big clubs Moyes never managed to achieve.... Going to take time, because Martinez has inherited most of the players.

Some players have joined Everton in the Moyes years, because the expectations on them haven't been so high, unfortunately, in my opinion.

 

[davek]

I think the point that needs backing up is the idea that if we slip down to tenth, below God knows who, with all the financial implications and our players getting off, we'll be fine and will be challenging for europe next year as your earlier post seems to suggest is realistic. It really isn't as teams today don't do that without big investment.

That's not true at all. You need big investment to crash the CL places. 6th to 10th place requires a well organised team that's solid and capable of converting draws into wins. My point is that even if we do slip down as far as 10th we'll get that solidity over time as the system becomes second nature to our players...and I'd say it's a big if that we actually fall four places anyway. If we do the earth will not stop turning and we'll have most things ironed out by season two under Martinez.

This line you're pushing is a strange one and it just adds to the scaremongering that we dont need right now. We'll have a very inconsistent season. We need to accept that and stop focusing on the short term and look beyond this season.

 

[paulbefc]

The Premier League prize money was something like a difference of £2m between 6th and 10th last season, if I'm reading the source I've used correctly. There may be other revenue involved for the difference between 6th and 10th that I'm unaware of (TV broadcast pot?).

There's other potential commercial advantages for the finishing sixth (but still not qualifying for Europe), but I don't think Everton commercial department has ever been as slick as it could have been exploiting those for higher revenue.

Maybe Roberto Martinez can help with that. The loan signing wonder kid from Barca might tweak a lot of interest in Latin American/Asia-China team, for shirts, merchandise and booking more live games. If followed by attractive play and some good results, and perhaps some results against other big clubs Moyes never managed to achieve.... Going to take time, because Martinez has inherited most of the players.

Some players have joined Everton in the Moyes years, because the expectations on them haven't been so high, unfortunately, in my opinion.

£3m, but yeah, that's buttons for a club like ours, right? That was only like, half of our biggest net spend in 5 or 6 years wasn't it?

http://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/05/20/the-premier-league-prize-money-table-see-how-many-millions-your-club-made/

The club won't go into admin or anything, but if we've kept Felli and Baines, expect our top 3 to leave. Then expect us to bank a large chunk of the fees. Then we're relying on Martinez to match Moyes in the transfer market while other clubs spend similar amounts without having to sell their best players. In this situation I guarantee those saying that this time next year they'd be sitting comfortably with this board in charge certainly won't be. In fact, they're talking out of their arses tbf.

 

[paulbefc]

That's not true at all. You need big investment to crash the CL places. 6th to 10th place requires a well organised team that's solid and capable of converting draws into wins. My point is that even if we do slip down as far as 10th we'll get that solidity over time as the system becomes second nature to our players...and I'd say it's a big if that we actually fall four places anyway. If we do the earth will not stop turning and we'll have most things ironed out by season two under Martinez.

This line you're pushing is a strange one and it just adds to the scaremongering that we dont need right now. We'll have a very inconsistent season. We need to accept that and stop focusing on the short term and look beyond this season.

I'm wondering if you've been reading what I've typed tbh. To finish above Liverpool i.e. to get top 6 from being tenth and needing to replace players, we'll need to invest or be extremely good in the transfer market. You're saying I'm scaremongering when I've been saying there's virtually zero chance of us actually finishing 10th. I'm just pointing out that among other things, a £3m hit will hurt us. It would have hurt us under Moyes and it will under Martinez, especially as he's trying to implement a new style here. I'm also really not the one pushing any line here.

 

[BowzinhoMkII]

I'm wondering if you've been reading what I've typed tbh. To finish above Liverpool i.e. to get top 6 from being tenth and needing to replace players, we'll need to invest or be extremely good in the transfer market. You're saying I'm scaremongering when I've been saying there's virtually zero chance of us actually finishing 10th. I'm just pointing out that among other things, a £3m hit will hurt us. It would have hurt us under Moyes and it will under Martinez, especially as he's trying to implement a new style here. I'm also really not the one pushing any line here.

I am in the positive camp about the whole Martinez thing but on Saturday it was far too lethargic and lacked any real primary game plan, though it will require time... the problem is I'm not so sure a team in our position can afford it. On a different note, Paul, You're deffo on the right lines here. The problem isn't so much that if we finish 3-4 places lower than previous expectation's it would mean the death of the club (I don't think you're being as hyperbolic as some seem to be making you out to be), However the following negative factors would apply... we'll lose an element of prestige (not massively important but it helps with draw), a short drop in revenue (one the board wont equalise) and the chance that our best players may want to leave. All of which could be compensated for if we could off-set it with lavish spending, however with the likes of Swansea (Wilfried Bony:£12 mil), Cardiff (Gary Medel:£11Mil) and Southampton (Pablo Osvaldo: £13.3mil, Victor Wanyama; £12.8mil) financially dwarfing us in the transfer window we cant really afford to be Laissez-faire about this.... And regarding wages spent? If anybody thinks that the four players I previously mentioned aren't on at least the same amount as fellaini you're bat**** crazy.