Everton v West Brom. Sat 24th Aug. @ 15.00.

[davek]

It's funny how those 5 minute highlights can make us look incredible. Yes we did play football and failed to score but watching the match on Saturday wasn't like that, it seemed to take ages to get the ball forward and a lot of possession was played.

We do need a bit more zip, yes, and that will hopefully come when Martinez has his own signings in. But everything on that score is exaggerated by the fact that Moyes had his players launching it very quick upfield to the final third. It's a culture shock playing consistently passing football for our supporters. A couple of decades worth of fan experience at hoofball this feller has to overcome, I dont envy his task pacifying a lumpen core who love their agricultural up and under football.

 

[paulbefc]

To be fair paul, I think Dave is referring to this season. Obviously if we consistently finish around 10th then that's a whole other deal. If we finish 10th, however there is some real encouragement about Martinez's style coming together with say a strong finish to the season then that gives us ground to kick on and get back into European contention. But yes certainly on a consistent, long term basis 10th is not an acceptable target every year for the reasons you've highlighted.

For me, I reckon 7th for us this year. As our squad is certainly better than the clubs who finished below us this year and as for Liverpool I still think our first 11 is better but they have more strength in depth and good forwards. So I think regardless of the transition the quality of our squad will prevail for the most part. Not that I'd write Martinez off if we finish below 7th, but there does have to be signs of the change looking like it will help us kick on in the future.

We're talking about whether a chance of/european football is a draw to ambitious players when choosing their clubs, which it blatantly is. We will lose that if we finish tenth. Just like these clubs splashing cash will have to go back from Van Wolfswinkel to Grant Holt etc, if their spending doesn't kick them on into the euro hopefuls end of the league.

After a disastrous season and 10th place, we wouldn't be able to keep any of our top players if they're bid for. We'd simply have to let them go and the hole in our balance sheet would have to be dealt with, giving us even less money from player sales to spend on replacements, we'd be a less attractive proposition for players, we'd be viewed by the outside world as a sinking ship in the absence of Moyes and we'd have a manager who has to replace our stars who doesn't have half the ability Moyes did in that dept.

I don't think finishing tenth is an option and I reckon it's way too easy to say "Oh, I'd be fine with it, I have patience etc" as we haven't had to endure a season that bad for ages and this is our best squad since the 80s.

Agree with the rest, if, somehow, there were signs we were definitely going to head back up the league quickly, then we could get behind that.

 

[Titus Bramble]

I am not kneejerk at all mate, I just don't think we should delude ourselves that yesterday was a good enough performance. Does that mean Martinez should be sacked? No. Does that mean he can't be a success? no. But it's the match thread from yesterdays match, and it wasn't of the standards you would expect.

I also don't get this "transition" stuff. It's a kop out. He inherited a settled squad, filled with internationals, who for the last 7/8 years or so have been in around the top 6/7 year on year. Of course some changes needed to be made. We drew too many games last year (already a worrying sign from this year). But in any walk of life, there's no point making changes that end up damaging performance. Make changes that improve the performance.
If the new MD of Morrisons makes changes that mean they slip from say, 5th to 8th in the world share, do you think he could save himself by saying "I am making changes"? Making changes, or wooly ideas like "changing the philosophy" is not to be substituted for hard facts. Any new manager will be judged on the previous performance, and his ability to improve upon it. If he is unable to do this, get rid of him, and find someone who can.
I am not saying get rid of Martinez, he should be given the season, and we should see how he performs. But this bizarre idea, that we'll almost lap up a 10th place finish uncritically goes against the very ethos of this football club. We are the team that sacked a manager in a taxi for finishing 5th. A club where achieving the best you possibly can, is inprinted on our psyche. Whether you are in your first year, 5th year, 10th year or whatever, dropping down 3/4 places in the league will never be good enough.

I've not said myself that yesterdays performance was good enough. What I have said is that we played some good, quick football in periods which led to shots on goal. This is what I mean by transition. It was never all going to slot in to place in the first few weeks of the season, the signs are there that we are starting to move into Martinez's style of thinking but some of our players will find it more difficult than others. Give it time and I'm sure that will change.

Comparing Morrisons to a football club is a bit daft to be honest mate, but the shop floor workers would be the equivalent of the playing staff at a football club and if a new MD in they wouldn't have to learn new ways of stacking shelves or scanning things through a till, whereas our players will be getting used to much different tactics.

I'm not saying finishing anywhere below 7th is acceptable, but if we struggle to then I will understand why, but it sounds like you wouldn't which is up to you.

But if we were to finish 4th next season, playing fantastic passing football scoring some great team goals after finishing 8th this season because we got off to a slow start but gradually got better and we progressed, would you bemoan this seasons position of 8th or would you agree you're glad Martinez got the groundwork in place straight away?

 

[davek]

We're talking about whether a chance of/european football is a draw to ambitious players when choosing their clubs, which it blatantly is. We will lose that if we finish tenth. Just like these clubs splashing cash will have to go back from Van Wolfswinkel to Grant Holt etc, if their spending doesn't kick them on into the euro hopefuls end of the league.

After a disastrous season and 10th place, we wouldn't be able to keep any of our top players if they're bid for. We'd simply have to let them go and the hole in our balance sheet would have to be dealt with, giving us even less money from player sales to spend on replacements, we'd be a less attractive proposition for players, we'd be viewed by the outside world as a sinking ship in the absence of Moyes and we'd have a manager who has to replace our stars who doesn't have half the ability Moyes did in that dept.

I don't think finishing tenth is an option and I reckon it's way too easy to say "Oh, I'd be fine with it, I have patience etc" as we haven't had to endure a season that bad for ages and this is our best squad since the 80s.

Agree with the rest, if, somehow, there were signs we were definitely going to head back up the league quickly, then we could get behind that.

I really dont see the big deal in 10th v 6th. They're both unacceptable in their own ways, because they're not success. I'd rather we had a new man in charge this season laying down the base for a different style of play than some of the slop we've had served up than a continuation of that and finishing slightly higher and a nice pat on the head from the patronising media about how much we keep 'over-achieving'. As has been underlined here between us in our dialogue, there is no real material benefit in this season finishing 6th/7th and finishing 3/4 places below that. I cant see, for example, how we are benefiting this summer from our 6th place finish over West Ham who finished 10th. It's just not an issue. At all.

 

[paulbefc]

I really dont see the big deal in 10th v 6th. They're both unacceptable in their own ways, because they're not success. I'd rather we had a new man in charge this season laying down the base for a different style of play than some of the slop we've had served up than a continuation of that and finishing slightly higher and a nice pat on the head from the patronising media about how much we keep 'over-achieving'. As has been underlined here between us in our dialogue, there is no real material benefit in this season finishing 6th/7th and finishing 3/4 places below that. I cant see, for example, how we are benefiting this summer from our 6th place finish over West Ham who finished 10th. It's just not an issue. At all.

If you want to overlook the impact of losing millions in revenue (as you conveniently seem to be doing), weakened draw for players both inside and outside the club, players demanding to leave and having to be replaced with less money and less nous in the transfer market and a media painting Moyes as the greatest manager Everton have ever had and turning from "plucky little Everton", to "poor little Everton, deserted by their saviour, possibly relegated in a few years", as they undoubtedly will, that's fine.

If you can't see how European football is an issue to players then I'm done. If we go down to tenth in our state, the idea that it's realistic for us to be back up in the top 6 the next year is again, fanciful at best. It looks like the benefits of Moyes signing the likes of Coleman, Pienaar, Baines, Fellaini, Jagielka, Gibson, Distin etc for buttons and the countless names before them really does get played down too much by some of our own fans. Martinez will not do that and so we have to stay where we are.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I find the argument trying to justify why falling back from Top 6 to midtable, extremely odd tbh.

Martinez has taken over a top 6 PL side, why should we be prepared to expect falling back from that & into midtable mediocrity, in the pursuit of what exactly? Style? Philosophy?

Sorry I don't get it, the expectation should be that he maintains where we where & looks to improve on it. Falling backwards would constitute failure by definition. Anyone arguing otherwise are merely getting their excuses in early imo.

As for what midtable might do to our squad, it would depend on how they viewed the transition & whether they felt we were going to provide a challenge for the European spots the following season.

 

[catcherintherye]

I've not said myself that yesterdays performance was good enough. What I have said is that we played some good, quick football in periods which led to shots on goal. This is what I mean by transition. It was never all going to slot in to place in the first few weeks of the season, the signs are there that we are starting to move into Martinez's style of thinking but some of our players will find it more difficult than others. Give it time and I'm sure that will change.

Comparing Morrisons to a football club is a bit daft to be honest mate, but the shop floor workers would be the equivalent of the playing staff at a football club and if a new MD in they wouldn't have to learn new ways of stacking shelves or scanning things through a till, whereas our players will be getting used to much different tactics.

I'm not saying finishing anywhere below 7th is acceptable, but if we struggle to then I will understand why, but it sounds like you wouldn't which is up to you.

But if we were to finish 4th next season, playing fantastic passing football scoring some great team goals after finishing 8th this season because we got off to a slow start but gradually got better and we progressed, would you bemoan this seasons position of 8th or would you agree you're glad Martinez got the groundwork in place straight away?

Yes, I agree, there were some passages were we played approaching what I'd expect, but we need to do that for much longer periods. It's not big problem for me, we just need to do better next time.

It could be Morrisons, it could be any business. My point is, in any line of work, if you make changes, you want to see results improving.
Of course if we finished 8th, then 4th I'd be happy. Having said that, if we drop 2 places to 8th, it will be even harder to finish 4th the following season.

However, this nonsense of "I don't care if we finish 6th or 10th" needs to end. It's basically saying you don't care if we finish below teams like Liverpool, Stoke, Swansea, West Brom etc. I think we should be finishing above most of them, and I'd really like to finish above Liverpool. Finishing below Stoke for example, is a far greater failure than finishing above them.
If you are in a sales job, you don't have the view that "if I don't finish first, I don't care where I finish, as it's failure". Or you don't see Olympic athletes who are 6th just stop running, as the difference between 6th-10th is irrelevant. they keep running to the end, as that is professional pride.

 

[thebluefox]

they bored the arse off me yesterday. No tempo whatsoever. That's not the real Everton that!

how often was it the real everton under moyes in 11 fuken years ,

 

[paulbefc]

I find the argument trying to justify why falling back from Top 6 to midtable, extremely odd tbh.

Martinez has taken over a top 6 PL side, why should we be prepared to except falling back from that & into midtable mediocrity, in the pursuit of what exactly? Style? Philosophy?

Sorry I don't get it, the expectation should be that he maintains where we where & looks to improve on it. Falling backwards would constitute failure by definition. Anyone arguing otherwise are merely getting their excuses in early imo.

As for what midtable might do to our squad, it would depend on how they viewed the transition & whether they felt we were going to provide a challenge for the European spots the following season.

We've ALL been pissing ourselves at the sh*te for doing it and yet they can and are spending their way out of it, hundreds of millions at a time and are one of the biggest clubs in the world. We can't spend our way out of trouble. It's pure naivety to suggest everything would still be hunky dory and there'd be "no negative effects" as there is, after all "no difference at all" between 10th and 6th in the league.

 

[Titus Bramble]

Yes, I agree, there were some passages were we played approaching what I'd expect, but we need to do that for much longer periods. It's not big problem for me, we just need to do better next time.

It could be Morrisons, it could be any business. My point is, in any line of work, if you make changes, you want to see results improving.
Of course if we finished 8th, then 4th I'd be happy. Having said that, if we drop 2 places to 8th, it will be even harder to finish 4th the following season.

However, this nonsense of "I don't care if we finish 6th or 10th" needs to end. It's basically saying you don't care if we finish below teams like Liverpool, Stoke, Swansea, West Brom etc. I think we should be finishing above most of them, and I'd really like to finish above Liverpool. Finishing below Stoke for example, is a far greater failure than finishing above them.
If you are in a sales job, you don't have the view that "if I don't finish first, I don't care where I finish, as it's failure". Or you don't see Olympic athletes who are 6th just stop running, as the difference between 6th-10th is irrelevant. they keep running to the end, as that is professional pride.

I agree with that.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

We've ALL been pissing ourselves at the sh*te for doing it and yet they can and are spending their way out of it, hundreds of millions at a time and are one of the biggest clubs in the world. We can't spend our way out of trouble. It's pure naivety to suggest everything would still be hunky dory and there'd be "no negative effects" as there is, after all "no difference at all" between 10th and 6th in the league.

What makes me laugh is that if Moyes was still here & delivered 10th place this season, the same voices would be going ape**** & calling for his head on a spike, as he'd have massively UNDERPERFORMED with the squad he built & was capable of top 4 & winning a pot, according to most of them last season.

But Martinez arrives & armed with the same squad, he's being given a 'free season' to somehow hone our football into some fantasy 'School of Science' way of playing & it's all gravy apparently.

I'm not going judge Martinez until the season is done, but if we have fallen back in terms of league placings, then for me to be satisfied then we'll have had to have looked capable of delivering results consistently in the back end of the season, which would give me some faith that we were capable of challenging for the European spots again next season. If not then we'll have just gone backwards, simple as that.

 

[paulbefc]

What makes me laugh is that if Moyes was still here & delivered 10th place this season, the same voices would be going ape**** & calling for his head on a spike, as he'd have massively UNDERPERFORMED with the squad he built & was capable of top 4 & winning a pot, according to most of them last season.

But Martinez arrives & armed with the same squad, he's being given a 'free season' to somehow hone our football into some fantasy 'School of Science' way of playing & it's all gravy apparently.

I'm not going judge Martinez until the season is done, but if we have fallen back in terms of league placings, then for me to be satisfied then we'll have had to have looked capable of delivering results consistently in the back end of the season, which would give me some faith that we were capable of challenging for the European spots again next season. If not then we'll have just gone backwards, simple as that.

I see the argument, like. It's Moyes' squad and we've played his way for 11 years, although for the last 7 of them, for decent stretches it hasn't been the pure hoofball that it's been made out to be. The squad is still excellent though. Our best since the 80s, of that there is no question. So while we can accept a small and reasonable backwards step to go forwards, 10th place, when taking into consideration the quality of the teams down there, some of them with new managers of their own and our current state, is ridiculous. We wouldn't have hired a manager that was going to tear everything down and start again anyway, as we can't afford to.

 

[squonk]

Mid-table mediocrity beckons I fear after watching that.

 

[mooseatingnome]

Mid-table mediocrity beckons I fear after watching that.

i don't understand this point of view. We've seen plenty of rubbish during Moyes' time yet you're willing to predict mediocrity after 2 competitve games under Martinez? Baffling.

 

[squonk]

i don't understand this point of view. We've seen plenty of rubbish during Moyes' time yet you're willing to predict mediocrity after 2 competitve games under Martinez? Baffling.

Just a hunch.