Match Thread Everton v West Ham. 5th March at 1500.

[oldblue]

I disagree mate, i think most, including myself have burned their bridges with Kev, they just aren't banding it about. Personally i have spoke in support of mirallas this season, and he has let me down in that respect, i wouldn't mind never seeing him pull on a blue shirt again. To be sent off once for petulance in a season after coming off the bench is forgivable, to be sent off when finally getting a run in the team isn't.

Fair enough. I've always thought he provided options but some of the support for him has become irrational dislike of others. From that perspective maybe he needs to go.

 

[TrixyStevens]

We froze up after the penalty save and we didn't defend the crosses at all. After that we were there for the taking. It's constant repetition this season. In terms of mentality, something needs to change. There's no spirit or fight, leadership, killer instinct or a will to win at all costs. Stop being so bloody meek and show some balls Everton ffs.

 

[Ashtonian]

Fair enough. I've always thought he provided options but some of the support for him has become irrational dislike of others. From that perspective maybe he needs to go.

Personally i love Mirallas, think he is a brilliant player and in the team aspect, has the renegade atittude that can win us a game at times when we are farting about walking the ball in. But without analysing both decisions, you don't slide in like that on a booking, it is just ridiculous, it wasn't a ball he was ever going to win, and even if he had it wasn't advantageous.

 

[royalblue66]

Still fuming over 24 hours on....

An absolute horror show of a last 15 minutes that.

It's hard enough being an Evertonian as it is,but this clown makes it much worse.

 

[oldblue]

Personally i love Mirallas, think he is a brilliant player and in the team aspect, has the renegade atittude that can win us a game at times when we are farting about walking the ball in. But without analysing both decisions, you don't slide in like that on a booking, it is just ridiculous, it wasn't a ball he was ever going to win, and even if he had it wasn't advantageous.

It was a petulant challenge and a petulant dive and that's what I'm starting to sense from him above everything else. Loved him when he could provide something extra but think his ego has been damaged and he's not reacting well.
We definitely need options to change our game plan but I've seen enough from Del to think he provides the same option going forward as Mirallas with more potential.

 

[technojoe]

Me at full time on Saturday............

 

[jonesboy]

This is my first ever post on GOT guys. Been an avid reader for a number of years but never felt the need to post until after yesterday's game. Having gone to the game here is my take on the most salient points.

Starting formation. Where the hell did three at the back come from? RM tried it for the last 15 mins against Villa midweek and it didn't work then. Why on earth did he then decide to experiment against one of the in form teams in the premier. The only two players who knew their role in the team were Joel and Rom. Everybody else looked uncomfortable with the system, which just lends itself to the tippy tappy nonsense that I thought we had, to some degree, moved away from. It was alarming the number of times we gave the ball away in our own third and it was down to pure luck/poor hammers play that we weren't punished for our mistakes. Indeed I thought we took the lead in spite of, rather than because of, the system.

John Stones. The lad is clearly suffering some sort of confidence crisis, and I thought it was a terrible decision by RM to bring him back into the team in an experimental defensive system that none of our defenders are comfortable/familiar with. Having said that, I was both startled, and deeply saddened, by the number of fans who have so obviously turned against him. I was in the street end, and it wasn't just the odd fan shouting abuse. The amount of vitriol the young man had to put up with almost every time he touched the ball was astonishing, and I've no doubt we are driving away from our club, potentially the best defender ever to have graced our famous ground. I believe he really will be that good, and we are going to lose him.

Kevin Mirallas. I'm a Mirallas fan but I believe he deserved his red card yesterday. I absolutely hate simulation so he deserved his first card, which made the tackle for the second card total lunacy. Having said that, I felt that he was also guilty of trying too hard, which I would much rather see than somebody not putting in a shift.

Ten Men. The sending off actually worked in our favour. Reverting to a flat back 4 made us more defensively sound and, more importantly, provided a balance to our play that we didn't have with 11 players on he pitch. I thought for that last 15 mins of the first half and the first 30 of the second, we played some of the best football seen at Goodison all season. Credit RM for switching Besic for Stones at half time, although I think there were probably 35000 Evertonians in the ground who would have done exactly the same thing. We defended sensibly, fought for every ball all over the pitch, broke with pace and purpose and controlled the game without really looking under any great pressure, despite all the endeavours of the excellent Payet. The players even got the much maligned home crowd completely behind them and I was even singing myself at one stage. It's why we're Evertonians and I admit I had a lump in my throat at times during that period, because I was so proud of what the boys were doing on the pitch. I could even take on the chin Rom's penalty miss and his excellent chance soon afterwards, as we were still in control and, for once this season, I couldn't see the opposition getting back into it. Then RM made his second substitution!

Substitutions. One of my biggest issues with RM is how he manages (or rather mis-manages) games in progress. Yesterdays second substitution was probably the worst example of mismanagement yet. There have been many times this season (and last season too) when the game was crying out for change, whether it be formation, personnel or both. Yesterday though, all we had to do was keep things the same. We were in total control and were still looking dangerous on the break. Everybody looked full of energy (especially Lennon). If anything, I would probably have brought on fresh legs for Barkley, but even that would have been reluctantly as he was the springboard for most of our breaks. I was totally gobsmacked when he took off our best player and replaced him with a second striker (who incidentally doesn't look remotely like a professional footballer to me). In which football manual does it instruct you to replace a midfielder with a striker when you are 2-0 up in 15 minutes to go and own to 10 men? I think it's possibly the most ridiculous substitution I have seen in 40+ years of watching football and, along with almost everybody else inside Goodison, I was not surprised when we started to surrender our lead and ultimately lose the match. Have I ever experienced so much mixed emotions watching Everton before? Probably just the 1985 F A cup final, but that doesn't make it any easier.

Everton that though.

 

[jonesboy]

got to agree with everything you've said mate-that 2nd substitution was unbelievable and I honestly believe he done it because he is one stubborn mother. Took off Lennon last time and got slaughtered for it so he thinks he's being smart doing it again. He needs sacking just for that one decision alone-hideous. And another thing why don't any interviewers ask him why did he do it and what was he thinking?

 

[BlueToff]

got to agree with everything you've said mate-that 2nd substitution was unbelievable and I honestly believe he done it because he is one stubborn mother. Took off Lennon last time and got slaughtered for it so he thinks he's being smart doing it again. He needs sacking just for that one decision alone-hideous. And another thing why don't any interviewers ask him why did he do it and what was he thinking?

They did. He said Lennon had said he was feeling it.

If that's the case, he had 4 other better options than an inexperienced (in the Prem) striker to bring on.

 

[oldblue]

They did. He said Lennon had said he was feeling it.

If that's the case, he had 4 other better options than an inexperienced (in the Prem) striker to bring on.

Agreed there seemed like more more experienced options but all of our gut feelings that it wasn't the right sub at that time are based to a huge extent on hindsight. Can't remember how many times a sub I saw no sense in worked out. Despite what people say there is no manager getting these things right all the time.
Thinking back a big chunk of me was desperate to get a goal from anywhere even at 2 0 because it felt like it was going to change things dramatically if they grabbed a goal.
Needing to stop crosses coming in from wide positions is something that seems crucial now because that's what happened but they may have got back into it just by lumping it through the middle to Carroll. Fatigue is very hard to legislate for.

 

[BlueToff]

Agreed there seemed like more more experienced options but all of our gut feelings that it wasn't the right sub at that time are based to a huge extent on hindsight. Can't remember how many times a sub I saw no sense in worked out. Despite what people say there is no manager getting these things right all the time.
Thinking back a big chunk of me was desperate to get a goal from anywhere even at 2 0 because it felt like it was going to change things dramatically if they grabbed a goal.
Needing to stop crosses coming in from wide positions is something that seems crucial now because that's what happened but they may have got back into it just by lumping it through the middle to Carroll. Fatigue is very hard to legislate for.

I agree. The sub was a real baffling one though as normally I can see some logic. There was absolutely none in that change unfortunately.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Weirdly, the most sense I've seen re. this defeat is in the Niasse thread. The reason we went 2 (nearly 3) goals up is because the 10 men ran their hoojies off for 70 minutes. Great credit to them, but they ran out of steam. Why? - Because a senior, talented member of the team got himself sent off (not for the 1st time this season), so his colleagues had to put in an extra shift to compensate. I'm really annoyed that letting a lead slip is a recurring feature of this season, but our defending has been much improved lately and we were coping comfortably with the Hammers' threat until legs started to go. A fully fit Barry might have made a difference, but he looked like he was struggling when he came on.

 

[oldblue]

Weirdly, the most sense I've seen re. this defeat is in the Niasse thread. The reason we went 2 (nearly 3) goals up is because the 10 men ran their hoojies off for 70 minutes. Great credit to them, but they ran out of steam. Why? - Because a senior, talented member of the team got himself sent off (not for the 1st time this season), so his colleagues had to put in an extra shift to compensate. I'm really annoyed that letting a lead slip is a recurring feature of this season, but our defending has been much improved lately and we were coping comfortably with the Hammers' threat until legs started to go. A fully fit Barry might have made a difference, but he looked like he was struggling when he came on.

Spot on. I remember asking a few games ago how much change in consistency and defensive reliability we would need to see before people didn't go straight back to the same arguments once a game didn't go as planned. Seems the answer might be more than seems plausible. We've been really good defensively but lost Cleverley who was a part of that and Barry for this game. Then went down to ten men for a period of time that usually means a loss and if we'd slotted a pen would have won comfortably. We also played solidly for a large period against a team causing problems to everyone.
There are clearly things to tweak still and still things to pull Martinez over. But the arguments against him are losing credibility if we are assuming patterns with every setback.

 

[oldblue]

I agree. The sub was a real baffling one though as normally I can see some logic. There was absolutely none in that change unfortunately.

As I said my only assumption was that nerves took hold of him in a strange way and he was hoping like I was that Niasse would blast one in from nowhere.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Agreed there seemed like more more experienced options but all of our gut feelings that it wasn't the right sub at that time are based to a huge extent on hindsight. Can't remember how many times a sub I saw no sense in worked out. Despite what people say there is no manager getting these things right all the time.
Thinking back a big chunk of me was desperate to get a goal from anywhere even at 2 0 because it felt like it was going to change things dramatically if they grabbed a goal.
Needing to stop crosses coming in from wide positions is something that seems crucial now because that's what happened but they may have got back into it just by lumping it through the middle to Carroll. Fatigue is very hard to legislate for.

I agree with the sentiment oldblue but disagree that it fits this particular case.

I recall with some distaste Moyes habit of making substitutions to "not lose" games. When RM came and started making positive changes to turn losing/stalemate positions on their head, I was in dreamland. Deulofeu for Baines in the Goodison derby two years ago is one particular case that springs to mind, even if we didn't actually win that one. Even this year, Kone against Watford and Naismith against Chelsea were changes that initially baffled me personally, but turned out to be masterstrokes, for which RM rightly received, and seemingly accepted, full credit.

I can also understand an argument for throwing on a quick forward thinking player when we are already leading, with a view to exploiting counter attacking opportunities. But not when we are down to 10 men, already controlling the game and being very effective on the counter attack, and certainly not at the expense of our most outstanding player by a mile who was doing a sterling job in both defence and attack. (I have seen the comments on here about Martinez saying he was tired but I saw no evidence of that on he pitch. If anything it was the opposite and I don't accept Lennon is the type of player who would ask to come off because he was tired. I just don't know when to believe what RM says anymore).

I also think you are sort of clutching at straws in defence of the manager when saying that, the general belief that "RM made the wrong decision is based on hindsight to a huge extent". Myself, any everybody around me at the game all said the same thing as soon as we saw what was happening. It was sort of a mixture of disbelief and dread that quickly turned into anger. And that's before they scored their first. I would say that's more akin to foresight than hindsight. No, I believe RM royally cocked up on Saturday and I just wish he would man up for once and take personal responsibility, rather than hiding behind refereeing decisions and missed pens. He might win back a few more of the fans if he did.