Everton Youth Teams Thread

[blueloon]

...I suggest he watches DCL closely because Simms does nowhere enough in leading the line like DCL does. Watching him in a game like that makes you realise why he’s nowhere near being a first team back-up.

He certainly doesn’t pass my ‘opposition bus test’. I think of the opposition CBs on the bus going home and wonder if they talk about what a stern test they‘ve just had. I doubt the West Ham defenders gave much thought to Simms, he needs to be making things much more difficult for them.

Agree, when he’s good he’s good but last night he was just average and not showing enough to push for a squad place. I would like Simms to go to a Championship club in January, he won’t score as many , likely get dropped but have to work a bit harder on his match game to prove himself. I still love Simms and how far he’s come in his goal scoring, hold up play , first touch etc but like Branthwaite he’s outgrown the U23s in terms of it developing him further .

 

[Eggs]

Branthwaite another who really should be looking to go out on loan. I reckon he would have gone in October if not for his injury. Too good to play u23 football but not quite ready for regular PL football. I think he will get there in time if we give him the right experience.

...I really don’t get this theory yet it’s regularly pedalled out. Branthwaite has been in and around the first team, he’s working with Ancelotti and the coaches on a daily basis and he’s training alongside and against seasoned international footballers.

Loan moves rarely work out for our youngsters and there are plenty of examples of defenders going backwards in their development. Their is an assumption that a loan deal is like La La Land where youngsters play regularly and get glowing performance reports but I’m afraid that’s rare.

I’m a firm believer that you keep and utilise your best youngsters.

 

[OzyToffee]

Thierry Small has been training with the first team squad right?

might be worth a punt against rotherham?

Nkounkou says hi.

 

[ToffeeTim]

...I really don’t get this theory yet it’s regularly pedalled out. Branthwaite has been in and around the first team, he’s working with Ancelotti and the coaches on a daily basis and he’s training alongside and against seasoned international footballers.

Loan moves rarely work out for our youngsters and there are plenty of examples of defenders going backwards in their development. Their is an assumption that a loan deal is like La La Land where youngsters play regularly and get glowing performance reports but I’m afraid that’s rare.

I’m a firm believer that you keep and utilise your best youngsters.

The standard in the U23 league is far from ideal from what I can see. They need the pressure and experience of playing in senior football where teams need to get results.

I think the reason we don't see the benefits of loan deals is that we usually don't always use them properly.

There are obviously players who don't need loans because either they are already good enough or because they got the break early. But there are plenty of examples of top players who spent periods on loan before becoming an established PL player. Just look at players like Harry Kane and Seamus Coleman etc. Even within our own squad, Holgate has looked an improved player since playing for West Brom.

 

[Pabbers]

Could a couple of these move into our squad next season ? Save us some money buying over-paid back ups ??
Thinking Simms, Nkounkou, Branthwaite, Onyango ??
Especially if we get Europa.

 

[edge]

Could a couple of these move into our squad next season ? Save us some money buying over-paid back ups ??
Thinking Simms, Nkounkou, Branthwaite, Onyango ??
Especially if we get Europa.

Nkounkou, Branthwaite might do others are too raw

 

[catcherintherye]

The standard in the U23 league is far from ideal from what I can see. They need the pressure and experience of playing in senior football where teams need to get results.

I think the reason we don't see the benefits of loan deals is that we usually don't always use them properly.

There are obviously players who don't need loans because either they are already good enough or because they got the break early. But there are plenty of examples of top players who spent periods on loan before becoming an established PL player. Just look at players like Harry Kane and Seamus Coleman etc. Even within our own squad, Holgate has looked an improved player since playing for West Brom.

Just to play devils advocate here though, is there not a case that Braintmhwaite has already done that? He already has a number of appearances at competitive level, which is an inspection he's already passed?

 

[Lanolin]

The standard in the U23 league is far from ideal from what I can see. They need the pressure and experience of playing in senior football where teams need to get results.

I think the reason we don't see the benefits of loan deals is that we usually don't always use them properly.

There are obviously players who don't need loans because either they are already good enough or because they got the break early. But there are plenty of examples of top players who spent periods on loan before becoming an established PL player. Just look at players like Harry Kane and Seamus Coleman etc. Even within our own squad, Holgate has looked an improved player since playing for West Brom.

Loans can be beneficial for some players, less so for others. I get what @Eggs is saying because it does sometimes seem like everyone wants every single young player to go out on loan as soon as possible and there's very little evidence to suggest it's a good idea. I wouldn't really class Holgate in the same bracket as the majority of prospects now, when he went out he was 22 and had loads of first team experience already. I don't think that was a development loan really, they just didn't fancy him and so let him go. I think they'd have happily sold him if the opportunity was there.

The main issue with loans is knowing where to pitch them. Everyone always wants players to go to a club that's at the top of the Championship but I'm not sure why. You need to get them a club that will do right by them, at a level that will be a challenge but also not beyond them. In some cases you'll want them to be local so it's not too much upheaval (particularly for someone like Branthwaite who's already had one big move in the last 12 months), in others you might want to get them away from the area for one reason or another. It's not easy to find clubs who want your player and tick all those boxes. I think a lot of people forget that when we loan someone out, our objective and that of the loaning club are pretty much the exact opposite of eachother. We want a player to learn and develop, they want someone who will make an instant difference. We want Simms to develop his all round game but if he goes on loan in January the chances are the team he goes to will have no desire to encourage him to do that, because it has no benefit to them. They'll likely just want him to score like he does for our junior sides, and so all the work he puts in with our coaches just stops for 6 months while he's used as a sub to throw on when his team's looking for a late goal.

 

[catcherintherye]

...I thought he was easily the best player. I think he’s highly rated and he could leapfrog Mina and even Holgate in the pecking order over the next few seasons. Very possibly one for the future.

I know I had mentioned to you the possibility of centre backs being used at fullbacks in the summer. It was just a gut feeling I had in terms of Ancelotti wanting solidity at the back.

Brainthwaite I don't really see as having the capabilities to play fullback, but at present he is potentially first reserve at CB if Mina/Keane go down.

 

[catcherintherye]

Loans can be beneficial for some players, less so for others. I get what @Eggs is saying because it does sometimes seem like everyone wants every single young player to go out on loan as soon as possible and there's very little evidence to suggest it's a good idea. I wouldn't really class Holgate in the same bracket as the majority of prospects now, when he went out he was 22 and had loads of first team experience already. I don't think that was a development loan really, they just didn't fancy him and so let him go. I think they'd have happily sold him if the opportunity was there.

The main issue with loans is knowing where to pitch them. Everyone always wants players to go to a club that's at the top of the Championship but I'm not sure why. You need to get them a club that will do right by them, at a level that will be a challenge but also not beyond them. In some cases you'll want them to be local so it's not too much upheaval (particularly for someone like Branthwaite who's already had one big move in the last 12 months), in others you might want to get them away from the area for one reason or another. It's not easy to find clubs who want your player and tick all those boxes. I think a lot of people forget that when we loan someone out, our objective and that of the loaning club are pretty much the exact opposite of eachother. We want a player to learn and develop, they want someone who will make an instant difference. We want Simms to develop his all round game but if he goes on loan in January the chances are the team he goes to will have no desire to encourage him to do that, because it has no benefit to them. They'll likely just want him to score like he does for our junior sides, and so all the work he puts in with our coaches just stops for 6 months while he's used as a sub to throw on when his team's looking for a late goal.

Lots of good points in this. Lewis Gibson is proving a lot of this, hardly got a kick at Reading.

I mean it's probably me being an armchair critic here, but I'm always surprised we don't explore European options for loans more. It's one of those things a few people say, and it's the sort of thing my dad and his mates would say in the pub in this manner that it was really obvious that makes me think there is probably an obvious reason they don't do it (but just one I can't see). It will probably get harder with Brexit. I do think a lad like Simms though, he may well suit someone in for example the Dutch league, where they can work on his touch and invovement more.

 

[Eggs]

I know I had mentioned to you the possibility of centre backs being used at fullbacks in the summer. It was just a gut feeling I had in terms of Ancelotti wanting solidity at the back.

Brainthwaite I don't really see as having the capabilities to play fullback, but at present he is potentially first reserve at CB if Mina/Keane go down.

...I’d already have Godfrey as first choice alongside Keane, I think that will be the pairing sooner rather than later.

I know it shouldn’t, but I think players profile and salary/contract often keep them ahead of others rather than merit. That’s what might makes it difficult for Branthwaite, but injuries/suspensions will mean he gets a chance and when he does he could leapfrog the likes of Mina.

I agree, I doubt we’ll see him getting an opportunity at FB.

 

[Lanolin]

Lots of good points in this. Lewis Gibson is proving a lot of this, hardly got a kick at Reading.

I mean it's probably me being an armchair critic here, but I'm always surprised we don't explore European options for loans more. It's one of those things a few people say, and it's the sort of thing my dad and his mates would say in the pub in this manner that it was really obvious that makes me think there is probably an obvious reason they don't do it (but just one I can't see). It will probably get harder with Brexit. I do think a lad like Simms though, he may well suit someone in for example the Dutch league, where they can work on his touch and invovement more.

Yeah i've wondered about that myself. The only real issues I can see (and this is just thinking out loud) would be not wanting young players to be alone in another country/worrying about learning languages etc rather than focusing on football, and trying to find that right level that I mentioned. Maybe there's a feeling that the top flight in some countries would be too high a level, but the second tier too low? I'd say that's probably the case in Germany, but probably not Holland.

 

[Cameron Manning]

I cant remember who it was against last season, but a certain game they were so bad all the way through pretty much and many of us watching it said it, and then Unsworth in his Interview after the game said they were magnificent and so good

There was the game v Newcastle, it was a cup final, might have been the season before last, and Everton were winning 1-0 and hanging on for the win, it was a freezing cold night and I think everyone in the ground, a couple of thousand or so, were praying it didn’t go to extra time, thank God it didn’t, Unsworth praised them that night as well, don’t think he kidded any of us who were there!!!

I’m not a big fan of Unsworth or the youth system at Everton and was hoping it would change dramatically once Brands came, there was some changes in personnel in the summer, I hope it improves the way things are run, but it is mostly the same old faces in charge, so who knows!!!

 

[catcherintherye]

...I’d already have Godfrey as first choice alongside Keane, I think that will be the pairing sooner rather than later.

I know it shouldn’t, but I think players profile and salary/contract often keep them ahead of others rather than merit. That’s what might makes it difficult for Branthwaite, but injuries/suspensions will mean he gets a chance and when he does he could leapfrog the likes of Mina.

I agree, I doubt we’ll see him getting an opportunity at FB.

It's wrong but natural isn't it. In any walk of life, if your boss is prepared to make a financial commitment towards you, then you will certainly get the benefit of the doubt more often. It's also the other way, people think "I can't afford to get this one wrong".

I happen to agree long term Godfrey is a CB, but I don't think a run at fullback will do him, or the team any harm. We have been scrambling about for a tight defence for some time, and we have had a couple of decent performances there from him. It reminds me a bit of the Lescott, Yobo, Jagielka & Baines dilemma. We all knew long term the best solution was Baines, Lescott, Jagielka, but all the while Lescott, Yobo, Jagielka performed well, it was stupid to change it. Allow Godfrey to really build his confidence at fulback and then move him inside once he's built that rep/confidence would be the most likely avenue.

I don't foresee Brainthwaite going to fullback. But he's a like for like in the middle, if we don't want to tamper too much.

 

[catcherintherye]

Yeah i've wondered about that myself. The only real issues I can see (and this is just thinking out loud) would be not wanting young players to be alone in another country/worrying about learning languages etc rather than focusing on football, and trying to find that right level that I mentioned. Maybe there's a feeling that the top flight in some countries would be too high a level, but the second tier too low? I'd say that's probably the case in Germany, but probably not Holland.

Yes it probably is a harder sell to a 18-20 year old. I'd imagine it's probably harder to strike up the informal links with such clubs as well. I do think that makes a big difference, remember Alex Ferguson ringing Alan Ball to send him a midfielder once, and said "you just teach him to play midfield". It's probably harder to have that dynamic and relationship in the same way. A lot of football seems based around that too.

Chelsea lads get loans quite well, but in honesty their youth players are the best and better than ours. You know if you take one of their lads on loan and do them a favour, you might be getting a Hudson Odoi, or a young Ke Bruyne or whatever next season. Whereas not sure you really get that with our players, it's more of a pain.

The core issue is, and I know you've mentioned it, they will be thinking "1 per season". There will be 1 lad they are trying to promote to the senior team. The majority of the rest is filler. Last night they had 3 16 year olds and a 17 year old playing. I suspect they will be the ones where there is a focus. The rest are there to make up an 11, and keep them competitive.