Everton Youth Teams Thread

[catcherintherye]

Sorry but if you're including the likes of Luke Thomas and Nathan Tella as promising players coming through then I have no idea why Anthony Gordon, Jonjoe Kenny and Tom Davies aren't considered the same. You can't cry about a lack of talent coming through then include dross like that which also wouldn't play for us.

I'm also not sure you can count Joe Gomez, signed for 10m + add ons, and not include Brainthwaite, Nkounkou, Stones, Holgate, DCL, Galloway etc who were all bought at the same age for about half of what Liverpool paid for Gomez as well.

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

I'm also not sure you can count Joe Gomez, signed for 10m + add ons, and not include Brainthwaite, Nkounkou, Stones, Holgate, DCL, Galloway etc who were all bought at the same age for about half of what Liverpool paid for Gomez as well.

Exactly its moving the goalposts to fit the narrative that we aren't producing. Even for Liverpool, they've produced one great homegrown player (who they robbed off us) and Jones who look like Premier league players and that's pretty much it in god knows how many years. The rest are all Pennington and Browning calibre players. No team produces a new first teamer every single year especially as you get higher up the league. If any club developed Calvert Lewin the way we have he'd no doubt be singing their praises on how patient they were developing him into one of the most complete strikers in the league.

 

[catcherintherye]

Exactly its moving the goalposts to fit the narrative that we aren't producing. Even for Liverpool, they've produced one great homegrown player (who they robbed off us) and Jones who look like Premier league players and that's pretty much it in god knows how many years. The rest are all Pennington and Browning calibre players. No team produces a new first teamer every single year especially as you get higher up the league. If any club developed Calvert Lewin the way we have he'd no doubt be singing their praises on how patient they were developing him into one of the most complete strikers in the league.

Bascially yes. And they spend year in year out tens of millions more on fees, wages, sign on fees, sell on fees etc for their young players every season to produce that.

 

[blueloon]

I'm also not sure you can count Joe Gomez, signed for 10m + add ons, and not include Brainthwaite, Nkounkou, Stones, Holgate, DCL, Galloway etc who were all bought at the same age for about half of what Liverpool paid for Gomez as well.

I’m slightly side tracking here, but one of the criteria I like to use is “ Where they with us at 16/ first year Scholars?” When I watch the U23s games there always seems to be comments like “;Arsenal got him from Barcelona” etc . This season, certainly the recent games, the whole squad have been with us since they were at least 16, many with us from years before. I think it’s only Jagne who joined us at 17. Not many U23s sides can say that , and while these players are still to make an impact in the PL it does bode well that we are not only bringing them through from our own Academy but are being selective in who we buy to supplement them e.g. Nkounkou, Branthwaite.

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

I’m slightly side tracking here, but one of the criteria I like to use is “ Where they with us at 16/ first year Scholars?” When I watch the U23s games there always seems to be comments like “;Arsenal got him from Barcelona” etc . This season, certainly the recent games, the whole squad have been with us since they were at least 16, many with us from years before. I think it’s only Jagne who joined us at 17. Not many U23s sides can say that , and while these players are still to make an impact in the PL it does bode well that we are not only bringing them through from our own Academy but are being selective in who we buy to supplement them e.g. Nkounkou, Branthwaite.

Not many other academies can say they've been banned from signing any U18s from other academies for the past 2 years either tbf. But I agree with the larger point you're making here

 

[blueblue]

I’m slightly side tracking here, but one of the criteria I like to use is “ Where they with us at 16/ first year Scholars?” When I watch the U23s games there always seems to be comments like “;Arsenal got him from Barcelona” etc . This season, certainly the recent games, the whole squad have been with us since they were at least 16, many with us from years before. I think it’s only Jagne who joined us at 17. Not many U23s sides can say that , and while these players are still to make an impact in the PL it does bode well that we are not only bringing them through from our own Academy but are being selective in who we buy to supplement them e.g. Nkounkou, Branthwaite.

The model of signing young players in the 18-20 age bracket for small fees has worked incredibly well for us.
I can immediately think of Stones,Holgate Branthwaite Lookman, Vlasic ,DCL, Nkonkou,Coleman but I am sure there are plenty others.
The fees are not huge and generally within a year or two you know how good the player will be.

 

[sladen90]

The model of signing young players in the 18-20 age bracket for small fees has worked incredibly well for us.
I can immediately think of Stones,Holgate Branthwaite Lookman, Vlasic ,DCL, Nkonkou,Coleman but I am sure there are plenty others.
The fees are not huge and generally within a year or two you know how good the player will be.

Still gutted about lookman and vlasic like.

 

[catcherintherye]

I’m slightly side tracking here, but one of the criteria I like to use is “ Where they with us at 16/ first year Scholars?” When I watch the U23s games there always seems to be comments like “;Arsenal got him from Barcelona” etc . This season, certainly the recent games, the whole squad have been with us since they were at least 16, many with us from years before. I think it’s only Jagne who joined us at 17. Not many U23s sides can say that , and while these players are still to make an impact in the PL it does bode well that we are not only bringing them through from our own Academy but are being selective in who we buy to supplement them e.g. Nkounkou, Branthwaite.

I do exactly the same mate. In the recent 23's derby most of our lads were under 16's scholars and most of there's weren't. It's not saying 1 system is better than the other, but it is an apples and pears comparison.

What I will say, is when you buy a young player, the fees are normally a fair bit above whats reported. You normally have agents fees, sign on fees etc on top and you generally have to pay them quite a bit more in wages than your standard scholars. It's why a lot of them move, and structurally is a problem in the game. I spoke to someone in the game, and a lot of these lads moves to top academies to earn 20k p/w (when you factor in they often get a share of 1st team bonuses) and 7 figure sign on fees as well, and they largely sit in reserve teams and don't move forward. Their motivation to succeed is thwarted a bit, we saw it with George Green a while back.

I am digressing somewhat, but the point is more that they are pumping a lot more in. Sure the occasions one goes for an eye catching 5-10m to Bournemouth, but when you work out all the costs it's not so much.

Even when we were aggressive, we were never massively aggressive for the highest rated prospects. Whether you view that as a strength or weakness us open for debate.

The record we have, of bringing lads through who were here at 16 is not too bad. The last crop we had, a number got very close. Davies and Kenny got through, while Dowell, Ledson, Connolly, Williams and now Robinson have all shown themselves to be championship+ players. Thats 2 through and potentially another 5 that were close. Were it the 90's, when we were poorer, and the league a bit slower and weaker, I suspect all would have played 1st team games for Everton.

Liverpool, since Steven Gerrard have had 1 local lad play 50 league games for them, in that 20 years, and thats Arnold. Maybe Jones gets there too. In that time we havd had probably 10 lads to do the same.

What is frustrating is people comparing players other teams bring in, particularly here Gomez, signed for 10m (plus all the other agents fees) as a 1st team player and counting him, but get a bit finicky when we mention Holgate, DCL, Galloway, Stones etc who were all brought as under 23players who came in. You have to have an apples v apples comparison.

To be fair after the Davies year group, we went into a bit of a decline for 3-4 years. I mean oddly Gordon may break through, and in some ways having a great player rather than age group is preferential as he makes the step up. The under 17's through to under 15's is seen as much stronger though.

 

[Eggs]

Still gutted about lookman and vlasic like.

....be interesting what happens with Lookman if Fulham go down, he’s been terrific for them and I can see him being on a few shopping lists.

 

[boris]

I can’t see how Tom Davies is being dismissed here. The lad’s going to be a top player and there’s a chance he’ll be captaining the England u21 team this week in the Euros despite all the top talent in this squad.

FWIW I do agree with a lot of points made. I disagree that we have a good crop of under 18s comming through, I think they’re really average. I don’t think Onyango is particularly good. I’m not even sure he’d be playing for the 23s at some clubs and they only one I really have hope for is Small whilst the likes of City, Chelsea and United have 5 or 6 players in their youth squads with the same potential as him.

Also, it should be noted that it’s much harder to get a game for the likes of City, United or Chelsea than it is here that’s why so many top players stagnate due to limited opportunities and don’t make it at those clubs. They have to move early if they want to see a pathway to first team football...see Sancho. There is a pathway here at the moment, I just think we’re quite poor at present.

 

[mightymoyes]

....be interesting what happens with Lookman if Fulham go down, he’s been terrific for them and I can see him being on a few shopping lists.

Probably depends what sort of fee leipzig are after what his options will be

 

[Nymzee]

Probably depends what sort of fee leipzig are after what his options will be

Around £20-25m

 

[BornBlue76]

I can’t see how Tom Davies is being dismissed here. The lad’s going to be a top player and there’s a chance he’ll be captaining the England u21 team this week in the Euros despite all the top talent in this squad.

FWIW I do agree with a lot of points made. I disagree that we have a good crop of under 18s comming through, I think they’re really average. I don’t think Onyango is particularly good. I’m not even sure he’d be playing for the 23s at some clubs and they only one I really have hope for is Small whilst the likes of City, Chelsea and United have 5 or 6 players in their youth squads with the same potential as him.

Also, it should be noted that it’s much harder to get a game for the likes of City, United or Chelsea than it is here that’s why so many top players stagnate due to limited opportunities and don’t make it at those clubs. They have to move early if they want to see a pathway to first team football...see Sancho. There is a pathway here at the moment, I just think we’re quite poor at present.

Unfortunately I think you’re right.. Small is clearly the headline act.. but the others i don’t think are close to the likes of Walsh or Dowell level at the same age and they didn’t crack it .. Onyango is big, which allows him to bully his age group, and does a good shift defensively which might be a career for him there plus he has ticked a few other age boxes...

 

[catcherintherye]

I can’t see how Tom Davies is being dismissed here. The lad’s going to be a top player and there’s a chance he’ll be captaining the England u21 team this week in the Euros despite all the top talent in this squad.

FWIW I do agree with a lot of points made. I disagree that we have a good crop of under 18s comming through, I think they’re really average. I don’t think Onyango is particularly good. I’m not even sure he’d be playing for the 23s at some clubs and they only one I really have hope for is Small whilst the likes of City, Chelsea and United have 5 or 6 players in their youth squads with the same potential as him.

Also, it should be noted that it’s much harder to get a game for the likes of City, United or Chelsea than it is here that’s why so many top players stagnate due to limited opportunities and don’t make it at those clubs. They have to move early if they want to see a pathway to first team football...see Sancho. There is a pathway here at the moment, I just think we’re quite poor at present.

I agree re Davies. I do think the Wayne Rooney paradigm haunts all of our youngsters. Rooney was ostensibly a fully rounded, world class player at 16. He didn't have bad games. You always get the sense if a player isn't quite to that level, you sense they are written off. Honestly, the whole country could go another 50 years and never produce as rounded a footballers as Rooney was at 16. Liverpool talk a lot about Kaide Gordon being the best 16 year old in the country (I'd question if he was that far ahead of Small but it's a slighty academic point) but he's about 5 ft 6 and tiny. He may be the best, but he is miles off where Rooney was. So there has to be a bit of realism. We may never see a young player of Rooney's ability again come through our academy in our lifetimes.

I tend to have a couple of objective measures I have for young players to see if they've "made it". I know Steve Heighway at Liverpool used to use the 100 league games measure, so I like that one, or generally 50 league starts/100 domestic appearances. I use both of those, have they got to 50- you can start discussing it, if they get to 100 starts then they are cemented in. Davies has 84 starts and 123 PL games, so for me he's made now.

As for the current crop, I suppose I will qualify that a little bit. The current under 18's age group, in honesty I wouldn't categorise in that way, it was more a comment on the 17's and the subsequent 2 years below. I've given a bit of an outline on the players a few ages back, but for me Price, Whittaker, Welch, Small, (17's) Heath, Romayne, Barker, Pickford, Tierney, Metcalfe and Lawrence are all at a higher level than what we've had in the 5-6 years that seperate Davies year from that year group.

The wider question and I suppose you could call it concern, is that we produce a lot of players of a certain type. Medium build, decent technically, a bit one paced, hard working and disciplined players who can put their foot in. Essentially a lot of central midfield players (but not in the Pep way!). The academy take great pride in lads getting careers and generally ours do that better than most other teams, but not at Everton, and beyond a potential recruitment advise to new prospective parents I don't really see the advantage of it. Lower league clubs have little money to spend, and have less now. It's one of those things that gets trotted out, a bit like when Unsworth spoke about "keeping the under 23's team together" which when you hear it makes no sense. I don't know how Everton benefit from it, and making players for the rest of the league, that will invariably be given away for a nominal fee doesn't work for me.

I think you are right about Small and to a degree it's what makes Onyango stand out. Small is very powerful, quick and strong, which makes him stand out. Onyango you are right to say is quite an ordinary player, but he's 6 ft3-4 at 17, who knows where he will end up. So he has certain advantages other players don't have. Overall, recruiting on physicality for a club like ours is probably a bit underrated and we should do it a bit more. We used to do it a lot more and while it got a bad rep, overall it suits us.

 

[Eggs]

I agree re Davies. I do think the Wayne Rooney paradigm haunts all of our youngsters. Rooney was ostensibly a fully rounded, world class player at 16. He didn't have bad games. You always get the sense if a player isn't quite to that level, you sense they are written off. Honestly, the whole country could go another 50 years and never produce as rounded a footballers as Rooney was at 16. Liverpool talk a lot about Kaide Gordon being the best 16 year old in the country (I'd question if he was that far ahead of Small but it's a slighty academic point) but he's about 5 ft 6 and tiny. He may be the best, but he is miles off where Rooney was. So there has to be a bit of realism. We may never see a young player of Rooney's ability again come through our academy in our lifetimes.

I tend to have a couple of objective measures I have for young players to see if they've "made it". I know Steve Heighway at Liverpool used to use the 100 league games measure, so I like that one, or generally 50 league starts/100 domestic appearances. I use both of those, have they got to 50- you can start discussing it, if they get to 100 starts then they are cemented in. Davies has 84 starts and 123 PL games, so for me he's made now.

As for the current crop, I suppose I will qualify that a little bit. The current under 18's age group, in honesty I wouldn't categorise in that way, it was more a comment on the 17's and the subsequent 2 years below. I've given a bit of an outline on the players a few ages back, but for me Price, Whittaker, Welch, Small, (17's) Heath, Romayne, Barker, Pickford, Tierney, Metcalfe and Lawrence are all at a higher level than what we've had in the 5-6 years that seperate Davies year from that year group.

The wider question and I suppose you could call it concern, is that we produce a lot of players of a certain type. Medium build, decent technically, a bit one paced, hard working and disciplined players who can put their foot in. Essentially a lot of central midfield players (but not in the Pep way!). The academy take great pride in lads getting careers and generally ours do that better than most other teams, but not at Everton, and beyond a potential recruitment advise to new prospective parents I don't really see the advantage of it. Lower league clubs have little money to spend, and have less now. It's one of those things that gets trotted out, a bit like when Unsworth spoke about "keeping the under 23's team together" which when you hear it makes no sense. I don't know how Everton benefit from it, and making players for the rest of the league, that will invariably be given away for a nominal fee doesn't work for me.

I think you are right about Small and to a degree it's what makes Onyango stand out. Small is very powerful, quick and strong, which makes him stand out. Onyango you are right to say is quite an ordinary player, but he's 6 ft3-4 at 17, who knows where he will end up. So he has certain advantages other players don't have. Overall, recruiting on physicality for a club like ours is probably a bit underrated and we should do it a bit more. We used to do it a lot more and while it got a bad rep, overall it suits us.

....I suppose the physicality aspect might be less obvious when many of these youngsters are recruited aged 8.