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Everton Youth Teams Thread

EFC_FRANCIS said:
Don't agree with a lot of that but just for example we had Kenny, an england youth International to the highest levels who we had and instead of trusting him as a back up after a decent loan we signed Cuco Martina instead. I'm simply not having Martina was good enough for first team football but Kenny wasnt
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Kenny played about 25 games one season. I wouldn't have started Martina over him either but Kenny must have played about 50 games in the first team so hes had a chance to prove himself.
 
blueloon said:
That’s twice this morning I’ve admired your calm response to a poster who’s been chatting wham :)
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CBF1002C-C3E5-4DA6-9D11-2D6D74F41634.webp
 
Eggs said:
…I don’t really get this ‘pathway’ development. You can have all the pathways to the first team you want but they are meaningless if the youngster isn’t good enough.

I’m of an opinion that if a youngster is outstanding at Everton he’s as much chance of progressing as anywhere. If we’re not bringing players through, it’s because they are not good enough. It’s a massive step up to the quality of PL.

in my opinion, our youngsters are not held back at U23, they are not poorly coached by Unsworth. That argument would have more strength if we are winning FA Youth Cups at U18 level, but we’re not even getting to the latter stages. If we have a good FA Youth Cup run it’s a great indicator of talent.

Not bringing many through is more about recruitment than coaching or pathways. Recruitment is such a problem, youngsters don’t play footy to the extent we did.
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Really Eggs? I think that's incredibly short sighted of you.

It isn't just down to how good the players are. It helps obviously. But how many of our top 16/19 year olds (across the country I mean) make it to top flight football. As a guess I'd say about 20%, if that. It's an incredibly low figure. And when I say top, I'm talking abut those players who were regulars in the England youth set ups. In some cases you can blame the players for not having the right temperament/attitude but the biggest culprit are the clubs for not giving the players the opportunities.

Chelsea have probably been the worst culprits in recent years. So many top youngsters have had loan after loan whilst not getting an opportunity in the first team, and eventually end up in the lower divisions. Frank Lampard stopped the rot whilst he was manager. Latterly we're also seeing it with City with only Foden coming through to the first team squad over the last few years from their very talented academy.

Conversely, there are clubs that have a history of trusting young players. The likes of Southampton, Fulham, West Ham, Arsenal, United, even Liverpool. A few years ago I'd have added Everton to that list, but since Koeman we have had a string of managers that, for whatever reason, have been reluctant to trust younger players.

Latterly there have been a lot of managers coming in from the German and French Leagues and that has certainly helped and that was reflected in the youthful England squad that did so well at the last Euro's.

So when I talk about pathway, I'm talking about a club and a manager that are prepared to trust young players. Yes, the players have to have the ability and right temperament, but I think that's always been there Eggs. They just haven't been given the opportunity to progress at the clubs they were at. The players, parents and agents are beginning to cotton on to that now, which is why you are seeing a lot more players leave their clubs when it gets to signing contract stage, and go to clubs where they see a route to first team football.
 

Terrarian said:
Is it the pathway that's isn't open too them or just the fact the manager at the time simply doesn't trust youth? Is that the same thing? I guess you have to be good enough first and foremost, patient second unless you are better than the first choice and then you're at the mercy of the manager really, don't know what Unsworth can do in that situation. What's your take?
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Yeah, the same thing as far as I'm concerned. It's usually down to the manager trusting young players, but sometimes there is also a culture within clubs that either encourages or discourages this. We just happen to have had a string of managers that didn't trust them.

Don't get me wrong, if we had a senior squad of players that were all boss and there was no room for young players to push their way in, then I wouldn't be criticising the club. But we all know that's not been the case and poor players have been played out of position rather than a youth player given an opportunity. If I was a Chelsea fan or City fan I wouldn't be moaning about kids not getting a chance. But nevertheless they have still be stunting their development.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
Really Eggs? I think that's incredibly short sighted of you.

It isn't just down to how good the players are. It helps obviously. But how many of our top 16/19 year olds (across the country I mean) make it to top flight football. As a guess I'd say about 20%, if that. It's an incredibly low figure. And when I say top, I'm talking abut those players who were regulars in the England youth set ups. In some cases you can blame the players for not having the right temperament/attitude but the biggest culprit are the clubs for not giving the players the opportunities.

Chelsea have probably been the worst culprits in recent years. So many top youngsters have had loan after loan whilst not getting an opportunity in the first team, and eventually end up in the lower divisions. Frank Lampard stopped the rot whilst he was manager. Latterly we're also seeing it with City with only Foden coming through to the first team squad over the last few years from their very talented academy.

Conversely, there are clubs that have a history of trusting young players. The likes of Southampton, Fulham, West Ham, Arsenal, United, even Liverpool. A few years ago I'd have added Everton to that list, but since Koeman we have had a string of managers that, for whatever reason, have been reluctant to trust younger players.

Latterly there have been a lot of managers coming in from the German and French Leagues and that has certainly helped and that was reflected in the youthful England squad that did so well at the last Euro's.

So when I talk about pathway, I'm talking about a club and a manager that are prepared to trust young players. Yes, the players have to have the ability and right temperament, but I think that's always been there Eggs. They just haven't been given the opportunity to progress at the clubs they were at. The players, parents and agents are beginning to cotton on to that now, which is why you are seeing a lot more players leave their clubs when it gets to signing contract stage, and go to clubs where they see a route to first team football.
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….imagine if we gave every promising youngster a run of games in the first team just to give them an opportunity. Managers will give any youngster a go if he thinks he has the ability to positively impact games.

It’s why so many are training with the first team. All the time they are being watched playing alongside and against top flight professionals to see if they are out of place. Very few young professionals we discard come back to play at the top level, I think that suggests they weren’t up to the standard.

Of course, there is a bit of luck involved because it’s all down to the opinion of the first team manager but the very good ones will come through regardless of who’s in charge.

The very good ones will come through because the manager wants to use them.
 
Eggs said:
…I don’t really get this ‘pathway’ development. You can have all the pathways to the first team you want but they are meaningless if the youngster isn’t good enough.

I’m of an opinion that if a youngster is outstanding at Everton he’s as much chance of progressing as anywhere. If we’re not bringing players through, it’s because they are not good enough. It’s a massive step up to the quality of PL.

in my opinion, our youngsters are not held back at U23, they are not poorly coached by Unsworth. That argument would have more strength if we are winning FA Youth Cups at U18 level, but we’re not even getting to the latter stages. If we have a good FA Youth Cup run it’s a great indicator of talent.

Not bringing many through is more about recruitment than coaching or pathways. Recruitment is such a problem, youngsters don’t play footy to the extent we did.
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I was addressing the first part of your post in my last post Eggs. I hadn't even read the second part in my eagerness to respond.

But I've been critical of Unsworth's management of the U23s in the past. Not for his coaching (although I do think he's a bit negative for my liking) but because he always played "experienced" players at the cost of younger players with more potential. If you like, it's a mini version of what I said in my previous post, about there being a lack of pathway into the U23s for the brighter players from the U18s. When Simms was scoring 40 goals against 18 year olds, Mason Greenwood at United was promoted to the U23s befor Christmas and had made his full debut by the year end.

Fortunately this problem seems to have been sorted now. All the older players moved on and the U23s are much younger, the way it should always have been in my opinion. Likewise many schoolboys are getting a chance in the U18s.
 

Eggs said:
….imagine if we gave every promising youngster a run of games in the first team just to give them an opportunity. Managers will give any youngster a go if he thinks he has the ability to positively impact games.

It’s why so many are training with the first team. All the time they are being watched playing alongside and against top flight professionals to see if they are out of place. Very few young professionals we discard come back to play at the top level, I think that suggests they weren’t up to the standard.

Of course, there is a bit of luck involved because it’s all down to the opinion of the first team manager but the very good ones will come through regardless of who’s in charge.

The very good ones will come through because the manager wants to use them.
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We continually played players out of position over the last few seasons rather than giving young players a go. You don't see that at places like United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Southampton, Leicester. When they are short they will play youngsters in the position. We had Davies at RWB and Iwobi at LWB last season with Nkounkou sat on the bench.
 
Exeter_Gently said:
All Unsworth is good for is showing youth players how smash a penalty in or hit long ball up top to the centre forward.
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I’m sorry , but you are wrong in your statement, and I find that comment so way off being accurate. I have been taking lessons off the wise and venerable @Eggs , and felt the need to politely point that out.
 

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