Everton Youth Teams Thread

[stretford blue]

Emilio Lawrence scoring for city in the fa youth not heard to much of his progression since he left for city

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

I was thinking about Chelsea when I read the original post. Names like Guehi, Liveramento, Tomori were well known at an early age, I guess we didn’t have the money and the forward planning to pursue them when Chelsea made them available. And the crux is that both City and Chelsea run that aspect of their academies like a business and don’t let them go cheap.

Don't let them go cheap no but you're paying for quality and strike rate. Bargains are there to be had, especially when the likes of Wharton are commanding 20 million fees vs Gilmour at 15 or the 40 for a much more proven Gallagher

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

Emilio Lawrence scoring for city in the fa youth not heard to much of his progression since he left for city

Wouldn't be shocked to see him get on a City bench next season the way Pep promotes kids. Especially if Ndala leaves

 

[JimmyK]

They can always be improved by decent coaches it works both ways, look how some of our players have improved under Dyche and his coaches.

It’s obviously not this simple but generally a top quality young lad with a top quality coach might have a 90% chance of making it a top quality young lad with an average coach a 80% chance and with a poor coach 70%. A player like Kyle John or Fraser hornby could have Guardiola and klopp coaching them from under 16s and they still wouldn’t be premier league players. Coaching is important but the raw materials in players are about 100 times more so.

 

[blueloon]

It’s obviously not this simple but generally a top quality young lad with a top quality coach might have a 90% chance of making it a top quality young lad with an average coach a 80% chance and with a poor coach 70%. A player like Kyle John or Fraser hornby could have Guardiola and klopp coaching them from under 16s and they still wouldn’t be premier league players. Coaching is important but the raw materials in players are about 100 times more so.

Interesting choices in John and Hornby in that for both we changed their original positions from winger to full back ( and back again) and from defender to centre forward respectively. I remember Hornby being on loan at Aberdeen - without scoring. With his size he may have made a decent defender , certainly nowhere near PL level, in the end though as you say no coach can turn bad into good.

 

[ZG756]

Halid Djankpata playing for Italy U19 against Austria.

 

[Cameron Manning]

It’s obviously not this simple but generally a top quality young lad with a top quality coach might have a 90% chance of making it a top quality young lad with an average coach a 80% chance and with a poor coach 70%. A player like Kyle John or Fraser hornby could have Guardiola and klopp coaching them from under 16s and they still wouldn’t be premier league players. Coaching is important but the raw materials in players are about 100 times more so.

What about the late starters, those who look average at best when younger develop into very good players or even international standard, like Tommy Wright who was such a player as an inside forward but later on became an international right back, Leon Osman, Tony Hibbert who for all the derision aimed at him became a very good defensive player. Then you had players like Rodwell tipped for a great career with the Blues,got the club a good fee but faded into near obscurity. Those with raw materials still need coaching unless they are born with God given talents like Wayne Rooney, nobody could have coached what he had.

 

[JimmyK]

What about the late starters, those who look average at best when younger develop into very good players or even international standard, like Tommy Wright who was such a player as an inside forward but later on became an international right back, Leon Osman, Tony Hibbert who for all the derision aimed at him became a very good defensive player. Then you had players like Rodwell tipped for a great career with the Blues,got the club a good fee but faded but faded into near obscurity. Those with raw materials still need coaching unless they are born with God given talents like Wayne Rooney, nobody could have coached what he had.

I'm not denying any of that am I. I haven't said coaching doesn't matter only that it isn't as important as getting players of the right quality coming in in the first place. When people are watching the under 16s or under 18s and saying theres no standout players there it isn't a coaching issue because at that age you will still shine just by having the raw talent even if it doesn't end up taking you to the top where coaching might be an issue is if players look like they SHOULD turn out to be really good when they're coming through the ranks but then don't but we haven't had very many of those recently.

 

[Raino85]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about Gordon. He played over 60 matches for us , so no “ could have been “ about it. At 16 he was a spindly waif, he left us at 21 for the biggest fee we’ve ever got for an Academy graduate, and you seem to be suggesting he hadn’t improved from 16-21 and that he had the same good talent/ faults when he left. I’m baffled.
The thing about Gordon that stands out for me is just how much he wanted it, from knocking on Carlo’s door to hiring his own personal trainer during COVID . You could say that he had a similar coaching set up to Kieran Dowell, and I’d say Dowell had more natural talent at 18 , but Gordon put in the effort and application. Sometimes coaches can only take a talented youngster so far …..

I'd agree with everything on that last bit! Even just his mannerisms on the pitch, he had/has a self confidence and a look about him that shouts out hard work and grafter. Rightly or wrongly that gets seen by coaches & managers and gives him that extra edge too your more 'relaxed' types like Dowell

 

[Raino85]

If he was knocking on Carlo’s door he didn’t get in very often, under Benitez he improved but Benitez said he couldn’t last ninety minutes which Anthony proved under Lampard and is still proving at Newcastle going by the last few games I have seen him play for them, blowing for tugs after a couple of good runs.

When he was in the U18’s and U23’s he could get you out of your seat with great play then go missing for the rest of the game and he’s still like that but I’m very grateful for the fee we got for him.

You just described the definition of a winger

 

[Raino85]

Honestly this should now be our bread an butter but not just released ones because these clubs don't really get them wrong nearly as much as they have to sell even better players who then actually want to graduate as you put it.

You could easily make a comfortable mid table side with players City and Chelsea have had and will have to sell at 18/19/20 and that number will only increase the more these clubs invest and hoover up talent. But all that is a moot point without buy in from the manager

James McAtee is my ideal signing for the summer!

 

[Cameron Manning]

I'm not denying any of that am I. I haven't said coaching doesn't matter only that it isn't as important as getting players of the right quality coming in in the first place. When people are watching the under 16s or under 18s and saying theres no standout players there it isn't a coaching issue because at that age you will still shine just by having the raw talent even if it doesn't end up taking you to the top where coaching might be an issue is if players look like they SHOULD turn out to be really good when they're coming through the ranks but then don't but we haven't had very many of those recently.

Fair enough Jimmy, not going to prolong the debate any further except to say a lot of coaching, not just at Everton, today doesn’t seem to encourage individuality, players doing fancy tricks, dribbling etc so hardly any of the young lads will stand out, every lad seems to be coached the same way and a lot of the games we watch see the same pattern, with the first thought of many players to automatically pass sideways or backwards and very few putting their foot on the ball and looking round to pass to a teammate, or to even have the sense to find the space in the first place.

 

[Raino85]

I was thinking about Chelsea when I read the original post. Names like Guehi, Liveramento, Tomori were well known at an early age, I guess we didn’t have the money and the forward planning to pursue them when Chelsea made them available. And the crux is that both City and Chelsea run that aspect of their academies like a business and don’t let them go cheap.

You look at Morgan Rogers who has just gone to Villa too.
City didn't really want him and went to boro for next to nothing, 6 months on Villa are paying almost £10m for him!

Southampton hoovered a fair few up due too Jason Wilcox's relationship with City.......and made a nice profit off Lavia!

You need to be careful and not go over board though, before you know it your team ends up like a Zat wet dream and you have a bunch of kids with no senior players to offer them direction (Southampton, Leeds last year)

 

[Cameron Manning]

You just described the definition of a winger

So doing something very good then goes missing for the rest of the game is your definition of a winger!!

 

[Raino85]

…also Lookman made us a few quid.

Throw in Cannon, Simms, Hornby & Robinson we have done ok!