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2019/20 Fabian Delph

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Lanolin said:
We'll agree to disagree. If you think highly paid footballers are likely to be more intelligent than the average person, and therefore more able to understand what someone means than the person actually saying it, I don't think you've met many footballers.

That wasn't really my point anyway though. There are hundreds of posts on here saying the players didn't try, didn't care, weren't bothered, are a disgrace. They mean it. They're not accidentally using the wrong words, they honestly think that the players didn't try. I believe they're wrong.
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Well you are right to say that I haven't met any pro footballers! You would hope though that there's enough discipline running through the club, that means players are aware that getting into slanging matches with supporters and using the "you wouldn't say this to my face" type of routine would just be deemed unprofessional. You seem an intelligent bloke who's worked for companies, can you honestly imagine many accepting their employees speaking to customers in such a way after a shoddy performance? There is a wider point here, which is namely that I don't think the governance and leadership of the club is good enough, but I will stand behind that.

As for the 2nd part, well it's part right. Have you never played football, tried but still been accused of not trying by a manager? Or not wanting it? It's a cliche that hints at broader things and most people I've played with seem to grasp that. In the abstract sense of course they try. In the specific of measuring effort and desire compared to their opponents, or even how they performed a few games earlier it was lacking.
 
Harryflashman said:
Knowing who at least a couple of the lads are who turned up at finch farm I’d think he was probably best served not pulling that big time line with them .
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Who was it? DM if you wish to share, i believe the Delph incident was FamousEFC am i right? Seems like a decent person running the page.
 
catcherintherye said:
Well you are right to say that I haven't met any pro footballers! You would hope though that there's enough discipline running through the club, that means players are aware that getting into slanging matches with supporters and using the "you wouldn't say this to my face" type of routine would just be deemed unprofessional. You seem an intelligent bloke who's worked for companies, can you honestly imagine many accepting their employees speaking to customers in such a way after a shoddy performance? There is a wider point here, which is namely that I don't think the governance and leadership of the club is good enough, but I will stand behind that.

As for the 2nd part, well it's part right. Have you never played football, tried but still been accused of not trying by a manager? Or not wanting it? It's a cliche that hints at broader things and most people I've played with seem to grasp that. In the abstract sense of course they try. In the specific of measuring effort and desire compared to their opponents, or even how they performed a few games earlier it was lacking.
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I think we may have slightly misunderstood each other here. I'm not defending Delph for getting into a slanging match, he's an absolute idiot for doing that and I have absolutely no sympathy for him. I also have no time for him as a player, he's been useless since signing and so has no credit in the bank with me. On the other hand, I think the bloke messaging him calling him out for not trying is an utter helmet and somehow even thicker than Delph.

I just mean in general, fans very rarely look at a poor performance and say they were just better than us. Unless it's so glaringly obvious that it can't be denied, there's always another reason why we lost. Look at the threads after Sheffield United, Norwich etc, not just Sunday, it's full of people putting the results down to lack of effort, calling the players lazy, cowardly, mercenaries etc. I think it's important to point out that I don't agree with that. If we all just accept that you can say whatever you ant to someone and then just claim that you meant something completely different but it's OK because we all do it, then it will just carry on forever.

What i'm saying is that sometimes people are just plain wrong, they can't see the difference between a team playing a high tempo physical game and a team sitting back and trying to soak up pressure. In their head the team playing quickly is trying harder. It's a child's way of looking at things, but fans do it all the time. I'll keep correcting people when they do it because I don't see the point in just letting misconceptions like that go.
 

Lanolin said:
I think we may have slightly misunderstood each other here. I'm not defending Delph for getting into a slanging match, he's an absolute idiot for doing that and I have absolutely no sympathy for him. I also have no time for him as a player, he's been useless since signing and so has no credit in the bank with me. On the other hand, I think the bloke messaging him calling him out for not trying is an utter helmet and somehow even thicker than Delph.

I just mean in general, fans very rarely look at a poor performance and say they were just better than us. Unless it's so glaringly obvious that it can't be denied, there's always another reason why we lost. Look at the threads after Sheffield United, Norwich etc, not just Sunday, it's full of people putting the results down to lack of effort, calling the players lazy, cowardly, mercenaries etc. I think it's important to point out that I don't agree with that. If we all just accept that you can say whatever you ant to someone and then just claim that you meant something completely different but it's OK because we all do it, then it will just carry on forever.

What i'm saying is that sometimes people are just plain wrong, they can't see the difference between a team playing a high tempo physical game and a team sitting back and trying to soak up pressure. In their head the team playing quickly is trying harder. It's a child's way of looking at things, but fans do it all the time. I'll keep correcting people when they do it because I don't see the point in just letting misconceptions like that go.
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Fair points. Essentially you are saying there are lots of reasons why we lose that can be other than effort. It's worth noting that I have sympathy with that view, but it is only an opinion. It's no more of less valid than than saying it's down to lack of effort.

I think the expectations are too high and there has to be some tolerance to football being a game with a lot of variance. They win with a wonder goal yesterday. Honestly we could have scored 5 in the first half. If we walk in 5-0 up, or even 3-0 we probably cruise to a bigger win 2nd half. We also probably place a degree of praise on the players that is unjust. It's why judging things on a game by game basis isn't massively helpful.

I a would also add, there is a misconception still that we didn't overachieve under Moyes. We massively over achieved. It's hard to take but it's true.I think people find it hard to understand how we go backwards having spent lots of money. At the core of all of these discussions is a club who refuse to communicate with supporters.
 
catcherintherye said:
Either way though, I'm worried about Delph. I just don't have a great gut feeling about him. I was concerned when he was mindlessly swearing against Bournemouth, his altercation with Holgate doesn't sit right with me and neither does this. He comes across as a bit of a bully to be honest. There is a difference between being a firm leader, and being unkind and unhelpful.
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The thing I can't help but wonder is if Delph thinks to himself, "I've got trophies in my cabinet, which is more than any of this lot have ever accomplished. So if I want to yell at my teammates and talk down them, that's my right. That's what being a 'winner' is all about." Given the fact that he was a bit-time player at City and won those trophies primarily on the backs of the greatness of other players and coaches, that doesn't sit right with me.

Regardless of the incident, his impact on the field for us has been minimal at best. For the record, I was never keen on his signing. To me, this should serve as a reminder that next time we look at signing someone like a Delph, Rooney, Eto'o, etc., we should remember that being part of massively talented and successful teams doesn't mean you can just transfer that success over to another club. If the best reason you can come up with for signing someone is that they'll provide "leadership" and a "winning mentality" rather than on-the-pitch attributes, then it's best to swerve.
 
Lanolin said:
I've addressed this in a later post. Yes, there's no dispute that Liverpool were more energetic than us etc, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone to say the players were strolling round, they don't care etc.

I don't think it's us that have to be forgiving in this instance, it's the people using the wrong words who need to have a rethink. The point is, I can absolutely see why a player would take offence at being told they didn't try if they did. It shouldn't be up to them to work out what someone actually means by that.
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Problem for him is effort is visible.
 

Disgruntledgoat said:
I'm leaving the fan stuff out of it. Just looking at it purely from a group dynamic POV. If you're going to join a team and start calling your teammates out then you better be setting the examples in training and on the pitch.
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Roy Keane perfect example of this. Slated his teammates for low standards and not giving 100% but could back it up. Not sure Delph has the right from what he has done in an Everton shirt
 

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