'Fans'

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

All of you with some sort of expectations disgust me.

 

[Deleted member 24970]

Nonsense that, regardless of whether you agree with the philosophy, Howard was too busy screaming at the defneders rather than playing it wide quickly. Martinez encourages play from the back and the keepers are instructed to play it short when possible. CAn't really blame Martinez for Howard being slow, he should have thrown the ball and then said something

Just wanna point out Martinez took a left back off for Kone on the weekend, an attacking move and it paid off hugely. Not saying he's god, but he wasn't scared to go all out for it. Hopefully we can start doing it from minute 90, sometimes.

The part highlighted i agree with, something i wish would happen more often.

My point with Howard and slowing it down is the same point many of us are making with the other 10 players, At times when play could be hit long or we could break quickly, its slowed down by the fact the players have this tikka takka style drilled into them. It creates doubt in the mind and tells them to play it short and in most cases back or side to side. Martinez himself has talked about installing this philosophy from the reserves upwards. What he needs to realise is results matter more, win ugly, get some breathing space and then try the philosophy when things arent as tough, the pressure is off etc....

Like we both agree though, hopefully we will see more attacking intent, positive substitutions and such.

 

[Heathcliff]

At times when play could be hit long or we could break quickly, its slowed down by the fact the players have this tikka takka style drilled into them. It creates doubt in the mind and tells them to play it short and in most cases back or side to side.

Ill go one further the philosophy is blinding the midfielders completely to the quick through ball - they dont even look for it because there is no interest to do it. Arsenal have been criticised for a decade for trying to walk the ball in - well we are trying to walk the ball through midfield and when faced with an obstacle we go sideways for more failure to walk the ball forward.

What we need is to get back to the little trianges and the runs into space and the anticipation and the flicks & backheels & defender isolations that we were served up banquet after banquet by Baines and Pienaar. If we could get that going on both flanks or one flank and through the middle wed be a monster of a side.

 

[streeky]

Missed Kone A performance this week but people have been very glowing in their praise for him when he came on. I have been quite impressed with his pace in the last 2 pre season games ,he has roasted a few fullbacks and got good crosses in but there was know one in the middle. I think most on here would say the lad doesn't look prem class but let's see him and rom upfront together for a couple of games and see if he can turn it around.(probably never happen with Martinez).

 

[andy4efc]

Ill go one further the philosophy is blinding the midfielders completely to the quick through ball - they dont even look for it because there is no interest to do it. Arsenal have been criticised for a decade for trying to walk the ball in - well we are trying to walk the ball through midfield and when faced with an obstacle we go sideways for more failure to walk the ball forward.

What we need is to get back to the little trianges and the runs into space and the anticipation and the flicks & backheels & defender isolations that we were served up banquet after banquet by Baines and Pienaar. If we could get that going on both flanks or one flank and through the middle wed be a monster of a side.

Don't really agree with the "blinding the midfielders part"... Why it when Gibson comes on he instantly see's it? Cleverley, the juries out. McCarthy is good defensively, playing passes? No thanks. Barry? Seems to be completely hit and miss, sometimes superb pass, sometimes dreadful. Osman? Again, never been one to play loads of through balls and his age is catching him badly as he slows the game down way too much.

Besic? Okay he is positive on the ball and is willing to try stuff.

Don't get me wrong, we need to play to Lukaku's strengths more which is getting the ball infront of him, running onto things and giving him chances, but it's the plyers ability that needs looking at. Whether it's Martinez' fault those players are playing, is another, but fair question.


-

The problem for me, is that Mirallas and Coleman can link up well on the right but when we have a major issue of predictability in the centre and the left. Baines provides more of an outlet but not as much as he does with Pienaar. on Saturday I thought we started well and the right side was a constant threat, but with Baines on our left teams know to defend more on that side, so when the right side doesn't play well we look absolutely awful because it's our main outlet.

 

[mkrudden]

Don't really agree with the "blinding the midfielders part"... Why it when Gibson comes on he instantly see's it? Cleverley, the juries out. McCarthy is good defensively, playing passes? No thanks. Barry? Seems to be completely hit and miss, sometimes superb pass, sometimes dreadful. Osman? Again, never been one to play loads of through balls and his age is catching him badly as he slows the game down way too much.

Besic? Okay he is positive on the ball and is willing to try stuff.

Don't get me wrong, we need to play to Lukaku's strengths more which is getting the ball infront of him, running onto things and giving him chances, but it's the plyers ability that needs looking at. Whether it's Martinez' fault those players are playing, is another, but fair question.


-

The problem for me, is that Mirallas and Coleman can link up well on the right but when we have a major issue of predictability in the centre and the left. Baines provides more of an outlet but not as much as he does with Pienaar. on Saturday I thought we started well and the right side was a constant threat, but with Baines on our left teams know to defend more on that side, so when the right side doesn't play well we look absolutely awful because it's our main outlet.

2 things in response.

Besic is a very negative footballer in the final third. He is a great prospect for the Barry role of starting possession, but in the last part of the pitch he has no imagination whatsoever.

Also

How is Lukaku meant to "run onto things" when the opposition are sat deep in their own half with 10 men behind the ball?

The only way he's going to get more chances is a) we get Baines delivering more crosses (when fit), b) get a playmaker who can see and play more subtle little passes.

The problem isn't the tactics, it's the personnel. Imagine tadic or Eriksson in this team and tell me Lukaku wouldn't start firing?

Martinez knows he needs a playmaker and probably knows he relied too much on the notion of a fit pienaar last year which backfired.

Patience.

 

[Neiler]

Fans < teds.

 

[sputnik]

@EFC78 - your memory of the 90's is different to mine mate. On the numerous occasions we stank the place out the atmosphere was poisonous. Players got exactly the same amount of abuse as they get today imo.

I also don't agree that fans turn up demanding and expecting a win either. What they demand is passion, workrate and tactical nous from the manager. When they see a lack of anyone of those 3 they get agitated and let their feelings known.

Couldn't agree more mate....

 

[Heathcliff]

Don't really agree with the "blinding the midfielders part"... Why it when Gibson comes on he instantly see's it? Cleverley, the juries out. McCarthy is good defensively, playing passes? No thanks. Barry? Seems to be completely hit and miss, sometimes superb pass, sometimes dreadful. Osman? Again, never been one to play loads of through balls and his age is catching him badly as he slows the game down way too much.

Besic? Okay he is positive on the ball and is willing to try stuff.

Don't get me wrong, we need to play to Lukaku's strengths more which is getting the ball infront of him, running onto things and giving him chances, but it's the plyers ability that needs looking at. Whether it's Martinez' fault those players are playing, is another, but fair question.


-

The problem for me, is that Mirallas and Coleman can link up well on the right but when we have a major issue of predictability in the centre and the left. Baines provides more of an outlet but not as much as he does with Pienaar. on Saturday I thought we started well and the right side was a constant threat, but with Baines on our left teams know to defend more on that side, so when the right side doesn't play well we look absolutely awful because it's our main outlet.

Gibson - because he gets on so little he hasnt had the play it forwards attitude ground out of him and replaced with the sideways first attitude plagueing us currently.
Cleverly is going to be a player for us a good one at that. I reckon injury free he gets 10 assists and 7 or 8 league goals for us this season.

When we have Deulofeu and Mirallas breaking down either flank and pulling the defenders off Lukaku we will have the space for much simpler forward passes to be played. Who is going to be that trigger man?
Are we setting up to play with wingers and looking to create from the flanks or are we going to go all counter attacking and play 3 forwards as fast as possible at a retreating back line. I feel we are stuck between a couple of styles of play so its not that we have no plan B but that we never get to it because plan A isnt being fulfilled in the first place. Odd odd odd.

Lets see who gets brought in and how strong the club and managers position is resisting moves for our players.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

If our supporters were more loving and supporters Martinez would use good tactics and win us games.

 

[andy4efc]

2 things in response.

Besic is a very negative footballer in the final third. He is a great prospect for the Barry role of starting possession, but in the last part of the pitch he has no imagination whatsoever.

Also

How is Lukaku meant to "run onto things" when the opposition are sat deep in their own half with 10 men behind the ball?

The only way he's going to get more chances is a) we get Baines delivering more crosses (when fit), b) get a playmaker who can see and play more subtle little passes.

The problem isn't the tactics, it's the personnel. Imagine tadic or Eriksson in this team and tell me Lukaku wouldn't start firing?

Martinez knows he needs a playmaker and probably knows he relied too much on the notion of a fit pienaar last year which backfired.

Patience.

RE: Besic, that's fair enough, however I meant that when he gets the ball in our own half or in the DM position, he is much more positive than others.

RE: Lukaku, again, that's a fair comment but there have been plenty of chances where Lukaku has made a run and has been, not so much ignored but not seen. When teams do dig in deep, lets get Lukaku on the end of chances.

RE: Personell. Again, completely fair and I agree barring one or two tweaks. I don't know if I said it in this thread or the other, we become very predictable when we don't have Baines/Pienaar and Coleman/Mirallas. Without a good midfielder infront of Baines, it seems like all our attack has to go down the right, so when Mirallas goes off we seem to lose all potency.

I completely agree Martinez knows and I don't think he's going to get the first one he see's, he will get somebody who can fill that void on the left we are desperately lacking. Another play maker takes the pressure off Barkley (who should be doing better, and less pressure should help him).

 

[mkrudden]

RE: Besic, that's fair enough, however I meant that when he gets the ball in our own half or in the DM position, he is much more positive than others.

RE: Lukaku, again, that's a fair comment but there have been plenty of chances where Lukaku has made a run and has been, not so much ignored but not seen. When teams do dig in deep, lets get Lukaku on the end of chances.

RE: Personell. Again, completely fair and I agree barring one or two tweaks. I don't know if I said it in this thread or the other, we become very predictable when we don't have Baines/Pienaar and Coleman/Mirallas. Without a good midfielder infront of Baines, it seems like all our attack has to go down the right, so when Mirallas goes off we seem to lose all potency.

I completely agree Martinez knows and I don't think he's going to get the first one he see's, he will get somebody who can fill that void on the left we are desperately lacking. Another play maker takes the pressure off Barkley (who should be doing better, and less pressure should help him).

Spot on mate

 

[andy4efc]

Gibson - because he gets on so little he hasnt had the play it forwards attitude ground out of him and replaced with the sideways first attitude plagueing us currently.
Cleverly is going to be a player for us a good one at that. I reckon injury free he gets 10 assists and 7 or 8 league goals for us this season.

When we have Deulofeu and Mirallas breaking down either flank and pulling the defenders off Lukaku we will have the space for much simpler forward passes to be played. Who is going to be that trigger man?
Are we setting up to play with wingers and looking to create from the flanks or are we going to go all counter attacking and play 3 forwards as fast as possible at a retreating back line. I feel we are stuck between a couple of styles of play so its not that we have no plan B but that we never get to it because plan A isnt being fulfilled in the first place. Odd odd odd.

Lets see who gets brought in and how strong the club and managers position is resisting moves for our players.

I think your first comment is backing my issue up, it's not the tactics, it's the personnel, in my opinion.

How many times did we start Mirallas and Deulofeu though? My quarrel with Martinez isn't that we start with a style that he does, is that he doesn't mix it up a little bit more a little earlier. He probably could have changed the game earlier on Saturday, however the substituions worked so can't say that's wrong.

-

My underlining issue is the midfield. Barry is just too slow to close down quickly and put pressure on their midfielders, the yellow cards last season showed that. McCarthy, okay, very good defensively but his attacking ability? Very post-injury Arteta like, sideways mainly. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having a player who just does the dirty work and passes on the responsibility, very Makelele, who was fantastic for Chelsea. However when you double it with someone who is on the decline, not energetic, not box to box, it's a little worrying.

 

[Heathcliff]

I think your first comment is backing my issue up, it's not the tactics, it's the personnel, in my opinion.

How many times did we start Mirallas and Deulofeu though? My quarrel with Martinez isn't that we start with a style that he does, is that he doesn't mix it up a little bit more a little earlier. He probably could have changed the game earlier on Saturday, however the substituions worked so can't say that's wrong.

-

My underlining issue is the midfield. Barry is just too slow to close down quickly and put pressure on their midfielders, the yellow cards last season showed that. McCarthy, okay, very good defensively but his attacking ability? Very post-injury Arteta like, sideways mainly. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind having a player who just does the dirty work and passes on the responsibility, very Makelele, who was fantastic for Chelsea. However when you double it with someone who is on the decline, not energetic, not box to box, it's a little worrying.

It seems you are a bit like me you want McCarthy to be playing like Carsley used to for us
4-1-4-1 (where Cars sat in front of the defence when we were out of possession and so another (Cahill) dropped into the 4 infront of him and then 4-4-2 where he joined that 4 in front of the defence when we were in possession allowing another (Cahill) to push up and support (Bent) and be picked out from some of the wide play.

We have better players than during those campaigns but we arent setup with the mentality and steadfast determinism that we were then. We are stuck between two styles and if it was ok to criticise our former manager for sticking with his favourites then surely the same can be layed at the feet of our current manager regards his current favourites to.

We arent one player away from solving this issue.

 

[andy4efc]

It seems you are a bit like me you want McCarthy to be playing like Carsley used to for us
4-1-4-1 (where Cars sat in front of the defence when we were out of possession and so another (Cahill) dropped into the 4 infront of him and then 4-4-2 where he joined that 4 in front of the defence when we were in possession allowing another (Cahill) to push up and support (Bent) and be picked out from some of the wide play.

We have better players than during those campaigns but we arent setup with the mentality and steadfast determinism that we were then. We are stuck between two styles and if it was ok to criticise our former manager for sticking with his favourites then surely the same can be layed at the feet of our current manager regards his current favourites to.

We arent one player away from solving this issue.

We certainly arent.

I don't mind the tactics we have/system we have, but I just don't think it works with the way we have the midfield. The system, for me needs to have someone who's more box to box next to McCarthy. that would give us a little more going forward and would mean they have to pick him up rather than putting more and more in the box. But yes, generally When we have the ball the b2b player can push up... Bare in mind we have attacking full backs unlike 2004. So McCarthy could just permanently sit back and then the b2b can worry about joining in and creating. Unfortunately that just isn't Barry's role.