Financial Fair Play investigation

[banno]

Best to just wait and see what happens rather than see who wins the I know more than you crap. No-one knows until we get a verdict. Fret when the verdict comes in if negative.

 

[rochdaleblue]

I dont know the exact figures but the'll be the ones accepted until recently by the PL to suggest there's nothing to see which revolve around stadium costs, the pandemic, expenditure on academy, women’s teams, community schemes, and on the disastrous effect on cash coming into the club due to the withdrawal of our main sponsor because of the Ukraine War.

It seems strange to me that in the UK economists and politicians constantly refer to the knock on effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War and never get pulled over it, but a football club using that same argument is "stretching" a point to "appear" to have made stuff up to avoid a breach.

You know, not everything the club does is wrong. Just because there's an army of people out there (Everton supporters and outsiders alike) stating something is fishy doesn't make it so.

But not to the tune of 200m! If it was day something like a 1/10 of that we might get away with it but not how far we are over.

 

[davek]

The figures are out there on the OS Dave for all to see. Every one of the past years shows a loss with the previous 2 being above the threshold.

This year's accounts show that the Ukrainian/Usmanov sponsorship loss had very little impact and was replaced with deals at nearly exact value.

If you think we spent the extra 200 million we are over the limits by solely on pandemic costs, the academy and women's teams, and community schemes then I've got a bridge to sell you.

Nobody knows the details of the agreement between us and the PL but we do know the profit and sustainability rules and per our own reporting we have broken them massively. It's not that it's fishy, the rules and the accounts are clear and show we broke the rules.

I dont think you're right there mate. What 3 years are you using?

And going into a commission what does the club have to gain from stating EFC are "compliant with all of the Premier League's financial rules and regulations"?

There's been some agreement with the PL on what they can claim in terms of deductions. And it's up to the PL to determine what it allows for deductions and by reasonably how much.

You, me and no one else are privvy to those discussions they club had with the PL, but they will emerge in any commission.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Which teams that?

Bristol City. However I work with a couple of Everton fans and interestingly one of them said to me "A points deduction? We're not in administration like Portsmouth were". I have quite liked Everton but I have fixed views on alleged overspending regardless of club or level and I stand by my view that this is an interesting test case.

 

[stamullenblue]

My concern on this is where Moshris money came from . Thinking this is more what this about than anything else and the FA under pressure from government are digging us out .

 

[davek]

Best to just wait and see what happens rather than see who wins the I know more than you crap. No-one knows until we get a verdict. Fret when the verdict comes in if negative.

Exactly right.

There's a lot of people just reading a set of accounts and then making up their own mind on what the PL can and cant do in terms of interpretation of their own rules.

That's the big fault-line that runs through the arguments of the anti-Everton / pro-punishment faction.

 

[Cmonefcsortitout!]

Just heard Neville saying something along the lines of something drastic needs to happen, to safeguard against the club not being able to pay it’s massive debts, if something were to happen to the owner. Don’t Man U have more debt than anybody? I could be wrong? But the hypocrisy of this makes me angry! The rules are stupid as they are. Just designed to keep the richest clubs that way forever. Not the smokescreen of safeguarding clubs. If that’s the case, why not let somebody invest whatever they want, as long as they put the cash down up front?

 

[mahermi1]

Bristol City. However I work with a couple of Everton fans and interestingly one of them said to me "A points deduction? We're not in administration like Portsmouth were". I have quite liked Everton but I have fixed views on alleged overspending regardless of club or level and I stand by my view that this is an interesting test case.

Whether Everton are proved wrong or not, the whole ffp, profit and sustainability system is flawed, it's rigged for the top six richer clubs to stay where they are and to keep the rest where they are. Now if you agree with it fine, you have your opinion which you are entitled to, but me, I like a level playing field where every team has a chance, the PL is getting to be like watching grass grow, the same teams winning all the trophies and playing in Europe nearly every year.

Rugby League a sport not even deemed fit enough for Sky tv anymore in my view leaves the Premier league for dead in some respects. VAR for one every inch of the replay is shown to the public and it is TALKED through from start to finish unlike Football VAR which seems hidden in contrast.

Salary Cap, they all get to spend the same amount of money, there is a limit on transfers and wages, which means to me eventually the league will even out and more teams can win or challenge, well that's my two penneth for what it's worth, in my view a far fairer system, which might even make the Premier League a competition again.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Whether Everton are proved wrong or not, the whole ffp, profit and sustainability system is flawed, it's rigged for the top six richer clubs to stay where they are and to keep the rest where they are. Now if you agree with it fine, you have your opinion which you are entitled to, but me, I like a level playing field where every team has a chance, the PL is getting to be like watching grass grow, the same teams winning all the trophies and playing in Europe nearly every year.

Rugby League a sport not even deemed fit enough for Sky tv anymore in my view leaves the Premier league for dead in some respects. VAR for one every inch of the replay is shown to the public and it is TALKED through from start to finish unlike Football VAR which seems hidden in contrast.

Salary Cap, they all get to spend the same amount of money, there is a limit on transfers and wages, which means to me eventually the league will even out and more teams can win or challenge, well that's my two penneth for what it's worth, in my view a far fairer system, which might even make the Premier League a competition again.

Don't disagree on Salary Cap tbh! That will really show who can and can't throw cash at it, and who is just a cheque book manager and who can do a lot with little.

Dyche eg- Definitely can do more with less.
Lampard? Jury out.

Over career I mean.

Just by way of example, Scott Parker at our level gets appointed to a reasonably strong squad at 2nd tier level who are also in receipt of a major financial advantage in Parachute Payments but this year I think O'Neil has made a better fist of keeping them up than Parker would have.

 

[Blue peter]

Just heard Neville saying something along the lines of something drastic needs to happen, to safeguard against the club not being able to pay it’s massive debts, if something were to happen to the owner. Don’t Man U have more debt than anybody? I could be wrong? But the hypocrisy of this makes me angry! The rules are stupid as they are. Just designed to keep the richest clubs that way forever. Not the smokescreen of safeguarding clubs. If that’s the case, why not let somebody invest whatever they want, as long as they put the cash down up front?

I think the difference is Man Utd’s debt as reported year ending 2022 was £535m for a company valued at a minimum of £4bn and a yearly revenue of just over £600m. We have a value of circa £400m (?) with revenues of £181m carrying debt of something like £750m (which Moshiri will eventually try and crystallise through equity) - that’s without the additional £300 or so million required to complete the stadium…..it simply isn’t sustainable whereas Man Utd can service their debt relatively comfortably

 

[mahermi1]

Just heard Neville saying something along the lines of something drastic needs to happen, to safeguard against the club not being able to pay it’s massive debts, if something were to happen to the owner. Don’t Man U have more debt than anybody? I could be wrong? But the hypocrisy of this makes me angry! The rules are stupid as they are. Just designed to keep the richest clubs that way forever. Not the smokescreen of safeguarding clubs. If that’s the case, why not let somebody invest whatever they want, as long as they put the cash down up front?

the same fella who said "you can't punish the fans" or was that Carragher ? Pair of rats.

 

[Llyrap]

I don't understimate the potential troubles ahead.

We have plenty for a Kings Counsel to get their teeth into though.

Burnley and Leeds were both threatening legal action last year and an abrupt stop was put to it. If there was a need to re-examine the details the club had provided to the PL, the time to do it was then and not now. I assume a commission could have been convened.

We can legitimately ask why now and as a result of what process? And why after a period of consolidation of our position?

I think this will be settled by legal argument and not the minutiae of the accounts.

I think that a claim following relegation would be difficult - causation in particular.

Separately the difference between 17th and 18th could quite easily be a VAR decision. Where do you draw the line -it’s a slippery slope.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I think that a claim following relegation would be difficult - causation in particular.

Separately the difference between 17th and 18th could quite easily be a VAR decision. Where do you draw the line -it’s a slippery slope.

If Everton had e.g. and not just Everton but any club had done it in bad faith attempted cover-up that would absolutely open the door IMO. Honestly done but breach via overspend? Far more difficult but the fact that Derby were so keen to try and defer their one(s) suggests that an outcome would in front of an Independent Panel have been unpredictable.

Yeah obviously when in administration they didn't want it but even when Mel Morris was in charge and pre Covid and solvent, they didn't exactly seem keen to tackle it head on at an Arbitration Panel.

For such cases Balance of Probability might be the relevant criteria. Civil cases often can be.

Here is the case or some background to it.

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/c9fc5dceaa7f4b62b81dca0b9e2f7c9d/2020.10.26---decision-on-mfc-redaction.pdf

I do remember however a) Barnsley seemingly intervening in the Wigan v EFL administration case and b) Stevenage definitely got involved when the EFL were appealing against a Macclesfield verdict in summer 2020.

EFL won and Macclesfield went down.

 

[whiteshadow]

We'll get relegated by points deduction this season while Man City get away with multiple blatant violations by threatening to take the Premier League to court for the next decade.

Bound to happen.

 

[Obes]

Reading have just been handed a six-point deduction with immediate effect. This stems back from a 2021 breach of rules as they haven’t got their house in order.