Financial Fair Play investigation

[Tom Hughes]

To be honest mate, you've just spent about 10 posts repeating "because hes an academic" to try and add credence to your point of view - speaking of weak debate points.

In your second paragraph - you are just going again - your having a circular argument with yourself - we know we are financial basket case - we called it long before Maguire. He hasn't really provided any deep dive analysis into our figures - he has provided click bait headlines for financial remuneration and own content creation - I've seen far deeper analysis - then beyond hes presuming guilt beyond due process and speculating on the outcome of a commission - he has no right or expertise to speculate on being an accountant. Being a financial basket case or not isn't my point though, I've told you what my critique is of him and the reasons for it.

I haven't posted 10 times about him at all. I stated his credentials and don't think I've used the word academic. You have multiple times.... so that is your own circular argument.

He has every right to "speculate on being an accountant" because he's a chartered accountant.

He hasn't had to do any indepth analysis. He's been following our case for years with multiple pieces in recent weeks, months and years. He states clearly that he was giving a very initial view of the accounts only. The accounts me and my fellow shareholders have been waiting months for. Gone are the days when we got them weeks/months in advance of our AGM...... and that's just another indication of the real issue(s).

You and Dave appear to be more interested in shouting at the vultures, than the cause! More interested in avoiding the toxicity than the cause! Rome is burning and you've got it in for the firewatch...

 

[Tom Hughes]

Have to say I'm uneasy with Maguire. This is a matter of the utmost seriousness for the club and its future.

To hear a professed expert on football finance not only judging the club guilty, but pronouncing likely punishment, before the commission has convened and heard submissions, seems to me entirely inappropriate. He is not just another guy giving his two cents on the internet.

Those who will eventually make up the commission could be hearing this in the media, or through their families and associates.

The case against the owner and board is one thing, but that's not actually the issue here. It's the clubs future that's on the line.

The pending hearing is the foremost concern, outside of avoiding relegation. The sort of discourse we've read and heard doesn't do anything to address the problems, it is potentially damaging publicity and the presentation of opinion as fact, when the club is in its most vulnerable state ever.

Oh, he's chasing the hearse now?

Didn't you read the auditor's assessment..... you know, the one they eventually found to sign one? The one all about their concerns about our future viability? The one from the set of accounts that actually prompted the independent commission?

 

[Neiler]

I haven't posted 10 times about him at all. I stated his credentials and don't think I've used the word academic. You have multiple times.... so that is your own circular argument.

He has every right to "speculate on being an accountant" because he's a chartered accountant.

He hasn't had to do any indepth analysis. He's been following our case for years with multiple pieces in recent weeks, months and years. He states clearly that he was giving a very initial view of the accounts only. The accounts me and my fellow shareholders have been waiting months for. Gone are the days when we got them weeks/months in advance of our AGM...... and that's just another indication of the real issue(s).

You and Dave appear to be more interested in shouting at the vultures, than the cause! More interested in avoiding the toxicity than the cause! Rome is burning and you've got it in for the firewatch...

You are just being silly now mate, credentials as an academic - that's just silly framing! lol

Ive just posted about a rights based approach to this. Equally the club have a right to due process rather then trial by Maguires Kangaroo media court.

Agree he hasn't done an depth analysis and again i don't think hes added any real value, despite the beatification.

Look, someone very wise once told me when someone personalises a debate, they've already lost it. This is becoming a less serious argument, post by post and you are venting, id rather stick to the issues at hand, rather then personalise.

So best wishes to you mate.

 

[davek]

So you're not criticising any of his actual assessment of the figures nor concerns regarding the audit process?

No, I'm not. Only your own assumptions about what I feel about the hierarchy of this club drove you to believe I was. Which underlines for me the lack of nuance out there amongst some people who cant get their heads round being anti-board and anti-owner but pro Everton in any battle between Everton and the PL.

He is perfectly within his rights to release any additional information he feels relevant if he's not subject to non-disclosure agreements etc. He's in a position to ask some of those involved the pertinent questions..... we should be interested in all of that information. The club have a long history of gagging former employees, controlling/cancelling AGMs and controlling media. You say that you know the club is a basketcase.... you just don't like outsiders saying it who have a far greater understanding of the numbers and industry.

This ^^^ is a fudge I'm afraid. @Neiler and myself have called into question Maguire's professionalism because he's gone well beyond what anyone who should be circumspect with his views should say about Everton and the referral they face. Conclusions about what judgement the commission will reach and punishments that may be handed down on the basis of any judgement are completely beyond the pale. He knows he should straight bat any attempts to get his thoughts on those issues apart from describing the range of conclusions the commission could reach and possible punishments they could hand down.

As for his divulging private messaging into the public domain, are you really defending his 'right' to do that?

Maguire is paid to inform and entertain on social media. That's the mission of that podcast. It's (as far as I understand) a serious dicussion of PL football finances in the context of an irreverent view of the industry. His coverage of Everton is grist to the mill.

 

[4737carlin]

You are just being silly now mate, credentials as an academic - that's just silly framing! lol

Ive just posted about a rights based approach to this. Equally the club have a right to due process rather then trial by Maguires Kangaroo media court.

Agree he hasn't done an depth analysis and again i don't think hes added any real value, despite the beatification.

Look, someone very wise once told me when someone personalises a debate, they've already lost it. This is becoming a less serious argument, post by post and you are venting, id rather stick to the issues at hand, rather then personalise.

So best wishes to you mate.

Nice work mate, take note, you ever see him posting in player threads? match threads? Not really sure what he agenda is

 

[davek]

I haven't posted 10 times about him at all. I stated his credentials and don't think I've used the word academic. You have multiple times.... so that is your own circular argument.He has every right to "speculate on being an accountant" because he's a chartered accountant.
He hasn't had to do any indepth analysis. He's been following our case for years with multiple pieces in recent weeks, months and years. He states clearly that he was giving a very initial view of the accounts only. The accounts me and my fellow shareholders have been waiting months for. Gone are the days when we got them weeks/months in advance of our AGM...... and that's just another indication of the real issue(s).
You and Dave appear to be more interested in shouting at the vultures, than the cause! More interested in avoiding the toxicity than the cause! Rome is burning and you've got it in for the firewatch...

Can you mix your metaphors a bit more thoroughly please?

 

[Walken]

To be honest mate, you've just spent about 10 posts repeating "because hes an academic" to try and add credence to your point of view - speaking of weak debate points.

In your second paragraph - you are just going again - your having a circular argument with yourself - we know we are financial basket case - we called it long before Maguire. He hasn't really provided any deep dive analysis into our figures - he has provided click bait headlines for financial remuneration and own content creation - I've seen far deeper analysis - then beyond hes presuming guilt beyond due process and speculating on the outcome of a commission - he has no right or expertise to speculate on being an accountant. Being a financial basket case or not isn't my point though, I've told you what my critique is of him and the reasons for it.

Also worth noting his work outside academia is not subject to the same critical peer review systems or written with the same motives.

That's not to say he doesn't know what he's talking about, but ultimately in terms of outcome he is guessing and should be open about that. The death squad on here making a deity of him shows a desire to have their own arguments confirmed more than anything else.

 

[Neiler]

Also worth noting his work outside academia is not subject to the same critical peer review systems or written with the same motives.

That's not to say he doesn't know what he's talking about, but ultimately in terms of outcome he is guessing and should be open about that. The death squad on here making a deity of him shows a desire to have their own arguments confirmed more than anything else.

Actually an excellent point mate.

 

[Tom Hughes]

I dont think hes done a deep dive or strong analysis into the figures to be honest, i dont find his reporting strong, its mostly productive of sensationalised headlines or inside info scoops, so i dont think hes added a lot of nuance or additional information or value to the issue. That is separate from me thinking we are mess from a governance and management point of view financially, I've been saying it for years. I find the concern over the auditing piece - speculative.

From a rights point of view, of course, he's not breaking the law, equally he is there to be shot at, that's the gig he has chosen. I'm calling into question, his objectivity, motivation, and the degree his "analysis" is filtered for sensitization - "inside scoops" etc for financial remuneration - certainly - more so if it impacts the wellbeing of the institution, i have an issue with that - i can sperate the institution from the administration. Hes acting and reporting like prosecution, judge and sentencer to line his own pockets - way beyond his experience, knowledge and competence in finance - and ahead of due process. I can understand why the club was annoyed on his speculation ahead of due process, it influences the institutions case and thus wellbeing ahead of their right to due process.

The commission was called before his assessment.

He's an independent commentator. He's only speculated on potential punishment given similar judgments on EFL clubs, what would you expect him to say? There have been concerns regarding auditors for months/years. Their arse-covering statement in the accounts is shocking and I can't ever remember similar. That and the outragious figures posted are why were being scrutinised. Nothing whatsoever to do with Maguire.

If you doubt his expertise, competence why are you concerned about the influence of his opinion? This isn't a complex murder case..... simple facts and figures with a set of parameters. If you think Maguire is the key issue, rest assured the other clubs facing relegation will have been lobbying far harder and far more directly behind the scenes, all season. That feeding frenzy will only get stickier with each game. Especially with so many clubs affected this year.

 

[PhilM]

What's he actually said?

 

[Tom Hughes]

You are just being silly now mate, credentials as an academic - that's just silly framing! lol

Ive just posted about a rights based approach to this. Equally the club have a right to due process rather then trial by Maguires Kangaroo media court.

Agree he hasn't done an depth analysis and again i don't think hes added any real value, despite the beatification.

Look, someone very wise once told me when someone personalises a debate, they've already lost it. This is becoming a less serious argument, post by post and you are venting, id rather stick to the issues at hand, rather then personalise.

So best wishes to you mate.

I haven't personalised at all.

I have stuck entirely to the issues. Shocking accounts (again). Commentator stating the blindingly obvious.... and no one being able to contest anything he's actually said, other than question is right to comment.

Credentials as an academic in that precise field..... and a chartered accountant. It was you attempted a character assination, not me.

As regards venting..... you've admitted we're a basketcase...... but you're only concerned about Maguire agreeing with you? You're "venting"..... only at the wrong man dear boy, and we all know dave just vents full stop.....

 

[davek]

The commission was called before his assessment.

He's an independent commentator. He's only speculated on potential punishment given similar judgments on EFL clubs, what would you expect him to say? There have been concerns regarding auditors for months/years. Their arse-covering statement in the accounts is shocking and I can't ever remember similar. That and the outragious figures posted are why were being scrutinised. Nothing whatsoever to do with Maguire.

If you doubt his expertise, competence why are you concerned about the influence of his opinion? This isn't a complex murder case..... simple facts and figures with a set of parameters. If you think Maguire is the key issue, rest assured the other clubs facing relegation will have been lobbying far harder and far more directly behind the scenes, all season. That feeding frenzy will only get stickier with each game. Especially with so many clubs affected this year.

On the referral/commission issue, this is where you've gone off the rails IMO.

He hasn't only done that. When pressed he stated on TalkSport that Everton would get a points deduction. That prejudges the commission, and no professional worth their salt would ever do such a thing.

He made that error because he is first and foremost now a social media personality, and eye-catching definitive statements rather than nuanced appraisal are the currency in that world.

 

[davek]

What's he actually said?

Everton are guilty of the PL allegations, they'll be deducted points, and he's taken 'late night calls' from Everton marking his card for him.

 

[SydneyFan]

What are the chances of a deduction this season?

 

[Blue peter]

What are the chances of a deduction this season?

We deduct points ourselves with most games we play…..a non religious form of self flagellation