from my cold dead hand

[atrottel]

How about the kids getting killed on a regular basis round this 'gun free' country of ours, come on boys wake up, young Rhys was murdered by a gun, not a legal gun as they were at Hungerford and Dunblane masacres remember, and it was fired by another kid, not an expert marksman as in the other examples. No matter how much you are all in denial they are avaialable even to minors, ask the victims family and relatives. The next thing we will hear will be on the lines of an all out gun fight between these gangs of kids................that is a FACT!

But do you think it would more or less safe if people in the UK were legally allowed to carry guns or have them in their houses for protection?

Lets also remember that the shot that killed Rhys was allegedly a mistake. It's fine for gun supporters to fantasise about one shot taking down an intruder. But anyone who has ever been in a fight or a struggle knows that it is messy and confusing and not at all like Hollywood would have it.

And bullets deflect off people and things, or go through them, or - heaven forbid - miss the target completely. That's when you get people like the Polish nurse killed on her way home from work. (And don't even get me started on that case and the normal GOT prejudices.)

 

[SuitsBlue]

Tony Martin

me personally, i'd give him a medal.

 

[atrottel]

Edited: ten, nine, eight, seven, six, breathe deeply...

 

[neonleon]

How about the kids getting killed on a regular basis round this 'gun free' country of ours, come on boys wake up, young Rhys was murdered by a gun, not a legal gun as they were at Hungerford and Dunblane masacres remember, and it was fired by another kid, not an expert marksman as in the other examples. No matter how much you are all in denial they are avaialable even to minors, ask the victims family and relatives. The next thing we will hear will be on the lines of an all out gun fight between these gangs of kids................that is a FACT!

you missed the point i was trying to make earlier.

the incidents you point out of course do happen. They found a loophole in replica guns - one that the government and police are currently closing.

But these are single isolated events. There may be quite a few, but they are very well publicised because its still a shock. Gun crime in the US - black on black with one casualty is rarely reported in anything but the most cursory manner in big cities. Why? Because its so damn frequent. Its not news. No-one really cares and wants to drag up the gun debate - cos they'll be shouted down by the NRA and all the lobby groups.

according to the stats gun homicide (not including all the accidents, mistaken hunting accidents and 300k suicides (I kid you not)), in the US accounted for 11,346 deaths in 2005.

the figure in England and Wales was 58 in 2005. Yes America has more people, the population being what 260 million - 300 million. Still Engand and Wales has a population of 54 million.

It's approaching one in a million to be the victim of homicide by gun in England or Wales. If you had similar stats in the US we'd be looking at about 300 gun homicides a year. Not 11.346.

I think the reason you get publicity for the school shootings, is the predominantly white kids who get shot. blacks killing themselves in the hood isn't news.
WASP's getting gunned down in their middle class schools is.

This is strangely having a bad feedback loop whereby deranged misfit kids want to be like the columbine kids and get all that posthumous publicity.


the insane "guns don't kill people, people kill people" statement is true. It just fails to point out that people want to kill each other all the [Poor language removed] time. Its human nature. All a civilised society can do, as a first step, is not facilitate this expression by arming its citizens.

What I dont understand is the hypocrisy of combatting nuclear proliferation. Its the same [Poor language removed] issue - just extrapolate from the macro to the micro - think about it!

 

[neonleon]

what I'm getting at, is that apart from it being an American cultural issue, its also a racial issue.

Not forgeting a capitalist issue - wouldn't want to see Smith & Wesson lose any profits - I wonder whether they contribute to the democrats or the republicans? mmmmmm let me think.

 

[monty]

you missed the point i was trying to make earlier.

the incidents you point out of course do happen. They found a loophole in replica guns - one that the government and police are currently closing.

But these are single isolated events. There may be quite a few, but they are very well publicised because its still a shock. Gun crime in the US - black on black with one casualty is rarely reported in anything but the most cursory manner in big cities. Why? Because its so damn frequent. Its not news. No-one really cares and wants to drag up the gun debate - cos they'll be shouted down by the NRA and all the lobby groups.

according to the stats gun homicide (not including all the accidents, mistaken hunting accidents and 300k suicides (I kid you not)), in the US accounted for 11,346 deaths in 2005.

the figure in England and Wales was 58 in 2005. Yes America has more people, the population being what 260 million - 300 million. Still Engand and Wales has a population of 54 million.

It's approaching one in a million to be the victim of homicide by gun in England or Wales. If you had similar stats in the US we'd be looking at about 300 gun homicides a year. Not 11.346.

I think the reason you get publicity for the school shootings, is the predominantly white kids who get shot. blacks killing themselves in the hood isn't news.
WASP's getting gunned down in their middle class schools is.

This is strangely having a bad feedback loop whereby deranged misfit kids want to be like the columbine kids and get all that postumous publicity.


the insane "guns don't kill people, people kill people" statement is true. It just fails to point out that people want to kill each other all the [Poor language removed] time. Its human nature. All a civilised society can do, as a first step, is not facilitate this expression by arming its citizens.

What I dont understand is the hypocrisy of combatting nuclear proliferation. Its the same [Poor language removed] issue - just extrapolate from the macro to the micro - think about it!

If you read back Leon its you who have missed my point mate, at what point can you take illegal guns out of the system effectively, at what point can you ensure that the illegal guns aren't available to any one that wants one and if you make the Tony Martin action legal surely that will also mean a proliferation of guns, legal or otherwise. It is all well and good having good intentions, they pave the road to hell and as matters stand we cannot do a bloody thing about it and that is the brutal honest truth.

 

[neonleon]

If you read back Leon its you who have missed my point mate, at what point can you take illegal guns out of the system effectively, at what point can you ensure that the illegal guns aren't available to any one that wants one and if you make the Tony Martin action legal surely that will also mean a proliferation of guns, legal or otherwise. It is all well and good having good intentions, they pave the road to hell and as matters stand we cannot do a bloody thing about it and that is the brutal honest truth.

you compare statistically us with our american friends we can and have done something about it.

the chance of being murdered by shooting in 2005 was approaching one in a million.

Illegal guns usually cause gun crime, but the majority of guns in America are manufactured, stolen, serials are filed off and they become illegal.

In otherwords they come from an originally legal source. This source no longer effectively exists in the UK - as you cannot buy a gun legally. This is why replica conversion has become the most prevalent method of procuring working guns.

Remove the replica guns (which we are starting to do) and another source diminishes. Your average sociopath in England carries a knife because guns aren't easy to come by, whatever alarmist stories you read.

58 deaths, whilst 58 too many, is minutiae compared with comparable US statistics, where they have done (effectively) nothing and lobbied against gun control and have let a free market run its course in pushing guns on frightened citizens and astute political contributions.

If I were a criminal and the police had guns and the average homeowner had a gun, sure as hell I'd have one. The majority of crimes in this country are far from gun crimes, they are still exceedingly rare - although the media covers them so senstationally, you'd think every hoody on the corner has a grenade launcher hidden on him.

So my point is, we already have proportionally taken guns effectively out of the population in comparison to the US. Our efforts have met with success and continue to do so. To say otherwise is to muddy the issue and make it look like legalisation of guns would have no effect or that the legislation against guns had no effect - which is simply not true and can be proven empirically.

 

[monty]

you compare statistically us with our american friends we can and have done something about it.

the chance of being murdered by shooting in 2005 was approaching one in a million.

Illegal guns usually cause gun crime, but the majority of guns in America are manufactured, stolen, serials are filed off and they become illegal.

In otherwords they come from an originally legal source. This source no longer effectively exists in the UK - as you cannot buy a gun legally. This is why replica conversion has become the most prevalent method of procuring working guns.

Remove the replica guns (which we are starting to do) and another source diminishes. Your average sociopath in England carries a knife because guns aren't easy to come by, whatever alarmist stories you read.

58 deaths, whilst 58 too many, is minutiae compared with comparable US statistics, where they have done (effectively) nothing and lobbied against gun control and have let a free market run its course in pushing guns on frightened citizens and astute political contributions.

If I were a criminal and the police had guns and the average homeowner had a gun, sure as hell I'd have one. The majority of crimes in this country are far from gun crimes, they are still exceedingly rare - although the media covers them so senstationally, you'd think every hoody on the corner has a grenade launcher hidden on him.

So my point is, we already have proportionally taken guns effectively out of the population in comparison to the US. Our efforts have met with success and continue to do so. To say otherwise is to muddy the issue and make it look like legalisation of guns would have no effect or that the legalisation against guns had no effect - which is simply not true and can be proven empirically.

In essence that is correct, it will have no effect, look at all the amnesties they have had, try telling Rhys Jones parents that they've had an effect. I hate guns like the next man but I cannot see how we can remove them from our society unless you match fire with fire. I admire you reliance on stats but as we all know they can be made to suit any argument at any time. In my experience it is what happens on the streets that counts at the end of the day and the public perception does not support the claimed stats in any way sadly

 

[neonleon]

In essence that is correct, it will have no effect, look at all the amnesties they have had, try telling Rhys Jones parents that they've had an effect. I hate guns like the next man but I cannot see how we can remove them from our society unless you match fire with fire. I admire you reliance on stats but as we all know they can be made to suit any argument at any time. In my experience it is what happens on the streets that counts at the end of the day and the public perception does not support the claimed stats in any way sadly

it has no effect? If we had the same free market and availability of guns as in America for the last few decades(the stats would probably be worse here due to the overpopulation of a small country and the amount of urban dwellers) we can extrapolate that 2450 deaths would have occured in England. Compared to a yearly average of about 50 - 60.

Its a mile from being an exact science but there is a difference between 2450 and 50 or 60 casualties a year. So what would we do? All the thousand killed by people who'd bought a 9mm on offer in Argos or Tesco. We just say to the families, monty said there's nothing we can do?

get real. you cannot reduce gun murders to zero same as you can't reduce gun possession to zero, but you can minimise both, which is the only sane policy. Using an emotive issue like Rhys Jones' parents opinion is just utter nonsense.

It is incredibly easy for the police to alter stats when it comes to crime, but harder when the crime involves a firearm. And these statistics come from the home office and the police force.

What you are missing is the role the media is playing on your minds perception of these things. It really isn't common. You think a story like Rhys would make national headline news in America? Nope. Its too common. Another kid killed on the street. It is reported here, because its still rare and shocking to the english psyche.

So effective is this blanket news coverage, with editorials about the facade (that should be fabric but I'll leave it in) of english society crumbling around our ears, that every sun, mirror, express and mail reader in the land believes "something should be done about it.", or "fight fire with fire" - which is always code for some form of draconian measure

this is not an excuse to go arming every household, every policeman, every pensioner because of it. Because the end product of guns in society is always, always, always more gun related deaths.

Look at Jamaica, look anywhere where they have an influx of guns, whereby the civilian population gets hold of guns. More deaths.

explain that.

 

[bluewoo]

what I'm getting at, is that apart from it being an American cultural issue, its also a racial issue.

Not forgeting a capitalist issue - wouldn't want to see Smith & Wesson lose any profits - I wonder whether they contribute to the democrats or the republicans? mmmmmm let me think.

Not sure capitolism is a direct issue - the most "proliferated" gun in the world is probably the AK-47 isnt it?

Sorry leon - not wanting to get sucked into this but I had to have a peep over here after the respose in the blue room. Its all a bit heavy innit?

 

[neonleon]

the most proliferated assault rifle. yes you are probs right.

but money is the main issue when it comes to arms trade - so capitalism is right up there.

in the USA, many manufacturers, companies, stores, websites make money from selling guns domestically. If we had the same lack of gun control over here, it would be the same.

we run on a similar capitalist system.

 

[bluewoo]

the most proliferated assault rifle. yes you are probs right.

but money is the main issue when it comes to arms trade - so capitalism is right up there.

in the USA, many manufacturers, companies, stores, websites make money from selling guns domestically. If we had the same lack of gun control over here, it would be the same.

we run on a similar capitalist system.

Market demand drives capitalism. The stores wouldnt exist if people didnt want to buy. So the root cause of the problem is people who want to kill one another. The gun is an enabler - unfortunately a very efficient, effective and reletively indiscriminate one. if it wasnt available then people would use knives, arrows, rocks, vegetables, whatever.

I'm FOR gun control - unfortunately its difficult to achieve in this day and age unfortunately - but the real problem is the people who have so little respect for human life that they'll kill.

What ever happened to the days when two people just had a bit of fisticuffs and then left it at that eh?


Aaah - i got sucked in - right i'm off back to the blue room!

 

[neonleon]

Market demand drives capitalism. The stores wouldnt exist if people didnt want to buy. So the root cause of the problem is people who want to kill one another. The gun is an enabler - unfortunately a very efficient, effective and reletively indiscriminate one. if it wasnt available then people would use knives, arrows, rocks, vegetables, whatever.

I'm FOR gun control - unfortunately its difficult to achieve in this day and age unfortunately - but the real problem is the people who have so little respect for human life that they'll kill.

What ever happened to the days when two people just had a bit of fisticuffs and then left it at that eh?


Aaah - i got sucked in - right i'm off back to the blue room!

sure, their is an increasing culture of violence, no doubt exasperated by a huge gap between rich and poor, poor social cohesion, inner city problems, racial tensions, the drugs trade, lack of good role models for kids in society, systems failing alot of kids from deprived backgrounds - e.g education, opportunities, the state, their own parents, US style gangs etc.

There doesn't seem to be a case whereby youths get bollocked by anyone anymore. As a wee kid, I was forever getting given a proper bollocking over something. Not just by parents or teachers. You'd get bollocked by everyone as a kid. The neighbours, passing pensioners on their way to the post office, any adult who saw you and you looked like you were enjoying yourself.

It doesn't really happen anymore. Everyone's afraid to get involved, and you know half the time the parents will back up the kids if you did.

Any adult gave me a bollocking as a kid, it was presumed they were right.

without these kind of social boundaries, children seem to do whatever they want today - and we as a society fear them, not the other way around.

a strange set of affairs and no doubt.

 

[SuitsBlue]

"fight fire with fire" - which is always code for some form of draconian measure

i like draconian.

just saying though.

 

[chicoazul]

As I said, and lets end this debate on my fine summary:

Guns dont kill people, rappers do.