from my cold dead hand

[TX Bill]

Slavery was/is morally wrong (in fact it's wrong on so many levels) and everyone knows it.

Are you going to equate slavery and owning a gun on a moral level?

Guns aren't going anywhere, gun controls or not.

Yes, you're going to have to keep hearing about he odd mental who goes off and shoots numerous people and about the one off where a kid gets a hold of a gun and accidently shoots himself or someone else.

And you'll have to continue to never hear about the millions of people who own a gun for home defense or for sport/hunting and never have problems with them whatsoever.

 

[SuitsBlue]

you brought the amendments and the founding fathers into this debate.

and how many innocent lives are worth the freedom of gun use?

 

[TX Bill]

you brought the amendments and the founding fathers into this debate.

and how many innocent lives are worth the freedom of gun use?

The very question that gun control advocates should be asking themselves. Yet they won't.

How many lives are worth getting guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens? Because you'll have an increased loss of life when it comes down to just criminals owning guns.

Where's the deterrence to the criminal who chooses to do harm knowing that he can inflict that harm without potential recrimination or recourse? There won't be any.

So, to answer your question (I wouldn't want to be accused of cherrypicking here. ), I don't know how many lives, innocent or otherwise are worth the freedom to own a gun?

I look forward to your response to the same question.

 

[Ct jr.]

But Bill, why is it that in countries like Canada and and most european countries, people are able to live safely without a gun. What is the difference between these countries. In Europe and here in Canada it is next to impossible to get a gun legally therefore people with illegal guns are rounded up before they can do any damage (for the most part). There are severe consequences and that acts as a detterent. And in response to your comment about the ammendments you misunderstood my point. I did not say that the founding fathers had no idea what they were talking about. Back then there were no real police and there was a real constant threat. My point is that things have changed, now you have a number of police agencies to protect the civillian population but they are being hindered by the fact that it is easy to gain access to guns "legally". Now answer me this, if you are pissed off at someone and i mean really angry, you have a gun, how easy is it out of anger in the spur of the moment to shoot someone. Now you can't honestly tell me that people would use knives or clubs in the same situation. It just does not happen.

 

[Ct jr.]

The very question that gun control advocates should be asking themselves. Yet they won't.

How many lives are worth getting guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens? Because you'll have an increased loss of life when it comes down to just criminals owning guns.

Where's the deterrence to the criminal who chooses to do harm knowing that he can inflict that harm without potential recrimination or recourse? There won't be any.

So, to answer your question (I wouldn't want to be accused of cherrypicking here. ), I don't know how many lives, innocent or otherwise are worth the freedom to own a gun?

I look forward to your response to the same question.

think about it this way.
Criminal comes in, he has a gun, he knows that there is a high possibility you have one and would try something stupid, you do and you get shot. Leave the guns to the police, unless you get everyone legally owning a firearm to have the same training,risk assesment, and common sense as the police.

 

[SuitsBlue]

The very question that gun control advocates should be asking themselves. Yet they won't.

How many lives are worth getting guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens? Because you'll have an increased loss of life when it comes down to just criminals owning guns.

Where's the deterrence to the criminal who chooses to do harm knowing that he can inflict that harm without potential recrimination or recourse? There won't be any.

So, to answer your question (I wouldn't want to be accused of cherrypicking here. ), I don't know how many lives, innocent or otherwise are worth the freedom to own a gun?

I look forward to your response to the same question.

that it was a mistake from day one to allow such a freedom - the freedom to take anothers life.

that it was and is a mistake to allow the masses to be armed and be in a position to instantly kill.

that due to the overwhelming amount of guns per square foot of the usa that guns are essential for the criminal as well as the citizen.

i dont see deaths due to robbery victims because they werent armed with guns, there are plenty of knife armed burglaries here, ..

..if i had my way, tony martin would have a medal, and every burglar would be shot in the face and his or her family spat on

...gun implementation had to start at one point, addressing and counterbalancing this problem is what is so unpalatable in my opinion.

 

[SuitsBlue]

think about it this way.
Criminal comes in, he has a gun, he knows that there is a high possibility you have one and would try something stupid, you do and you get shot. Leave the guns to the police, unless you get everyone legally owning a firearm to have the same training,risk assesment, and common sense as the police.

doesnt the thread start show that not even the authorities have the correct vetting and training?

 

[Ct jr.]

Here is another thing:

Why is it that not even street cops in London England carry guns, yet the gun violence death toll is much lower than that of major US city's. Just some food for thought. In a highly regulated society (for firearms) not even police need all the time, but for some reason all Americans need a gun for protection otherwise they will all be killed by burglars.

 

[TX Bill]

But Bill, why is it that in countries like Canada and and most european countries, people are able to live safely without a gun. What is the difference between these countries. In Europe and here in Canada it is next to impossible to get a gun legally therefore people with illegal guns are rounded up before they can do any damage (for the most part). There are severe consequences and that acts as a detterent. And in response to your comment about the ammendments you misunderstood my point. I did not say that the founding fathers had no idea what they were talking about. Back then there were no real police and there was a real constant threat. My point is that things have changed, now you have a number of police agencies to protect the civillian population but they are being hindered by the fact that it is easy to gain access to guns "legally". Now answer me this, if you are pissed off at someone and i mean really angry, you have a gun, how easy is it out of anger in the spur of the moment to shoot someone. Now you can't honestly tell me that people would use knives or clubs in the same situation. It just does not happen.

It happens, just not as much as it does with a gun. That and it doesn't make for good copy. Yes, if you are intent on killing a person, it is easier to do it with a gun vs. any other type of weapon you can get your hands on.

I agree that times have changed but I'll go back to my point which hasn't changed that people who want to get a hold of a gun, with all of the controls in place, will still do so and will be able to commit crimes with that gun. It won't matter what controls are in place. Not one bit.

If that's the case, do I really want to rely on a government or law enforcement agency to protect me? We can't rely on the police, while they do a very good job, to be all places at all times. It isn't feasible.

In that Wall Street Journal article I posted (not exactly a bastion of conservative thought) they cited statistics that said that gun crime has actually increased in Europe during the times that they've instituted various gun controls, some lax and some harsh.

And what do we do with those who want to own guns for sport or hunting? Are they going to be subject to these same controls? How do we weed out who wants a gun for shooting game and someone who's intent on doing harm to others?

You don't need to answer that, I'm just asking out loud. It's certainly not a subject that I believe has easy answers on either side of the debate.

And lastly, I'm not some gun enthusiast who's a card carrying member of the NRA or anything like that although I'm certain that it's come across that way.

 

[SuitsBlue]

ct jr, your guilty there of doing what the pro lot do, take a situation and manipulate it.

there are so many holes in the ''right to bear arms'' debate that it is easy to show up the believers.

alcohol, drugs, illegal drugs, eye sight, mental state, light or no light, paranoia.

[Poor language removed] it, arm everyone and hope it all turns out ok.

Bollocks.

 

[TX Bill]

Here is another thing:

Why is it that not even street cops in London England carry guns, yet the gun violence death toll is much lower than that of major US city's. Just some food for thought. In a highly regulated society (for firearms) not even police need all the time, but for some reason all Americans need a gun for protection otherwise they will all be killed by burglars.

Uh, let's not oversimplify the issue. That's what got us (me) started on this whole gun issue, responding to Suits post about the shootings in Wisconsin.

I mean if we really want to oversimplify it, it would stand to reason that we'd have MORE crime, MORE burglaries, and MORE assaults if we had fewer guns in the hands of law abiding citizens than we have now.

 

[TX Bill]

doesnt the thread start show that not even the authorities have the correct vetting and training?

Suits, don't bother posting anymore if you're going to take a one off, random situation, and apply it across the board to all.

99.999% of the law enforcement agents in this country have the correct training and have been vetted properly. Is it 100% foolproof that someone wont' crack down the road and decide to just kill someone?

Of course not so don't be silly.

 

[TX Bill]

ct jr, your guilty there of doing what the pro lot do, take a situation and manipulate it.

there are so many holes in the ''right to bear arms'' debate that it is easy to show up the believers.

alcohol, drugs, illegal drugs, eye sight, mental state, light or no light, paranoia.

[Poor language removed] it, arm everyone and hope it all turns out ok.

Bollocks.

Now you're talking. Let's get everyone to stock up on the guns. Heck, they won't even let you live in Texas unless you can prove you own at least 3.

 

[TX Bill]

that it was a mistake from day one to allow such a freedom - the freedom to take anothers life.

that it was and is a mistake to allow the masses to be armed and be in a position to instantly kill.

that due to the overwhelming amount of guns per square foot of the usa that guns are essential for the criminal as well as the citizen.

i dont see deaths due to robbery victims because they werent armed with guns, there are plenty of knife armed burglaries here, ..

..if i had my way, tony martin would have a medal, and every burglar would be shot in the face and his or her family spat on

...gun implementation had to start at one point, addressing and counterbalancing this problem is what is so unpalatable in my opinion.

Funny as I always looked at it from the standpoint of freedom to defend one's life and property.

Suits, if I knew you better, I'd say that you were advocating the life of a criminal over my liberty and right to live and hold my property.

But I know you're not saying that.

 

[SuitsBlue]

i got in so much trouble for saying tony martin deserved a medal for shooting and killing a 5 times burglar in this country .. its unbelievable.

what i have distaste for is every man fit or otherwise armed to the teeth walking the streets. if thats the way its going, then sooner or later its the way i will have to be due to everyone else being armed like [Poor language removed].

once upon a time it was called peer pressure, but now its called the arms industry, and some **** somewhere is getting rich of fear.

pardon me for feeling ill.