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Group C: Slovenia, Denmark, Serbia, England

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Gilbert.. said:
I do find the whole narrative around England quite strange though. Southgate isn't the best granted but im old enough to remember England at many tounaments and we've been crap at most of them. Euros 88. Crap. Italia 90. Played well in the semi final but were crap most of the tournament. Cameroon played us off the park. Sweden 92. Crap. Euro 96. Struggled in most games bar holland.
The list goes on.
There is a tendency to think England will roll many teams over. Bordering on arrogance.
I wouldnt even make England favourites against Switzerland.
I tend to see England as 6 or 7th choice to win at most of these tournaments.
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Who did we get knocked out by in all of those tournaments?

Did we ever go through to the semi finals without playing anybody of any note at all.

All comes down to tournament draws at the end of the day. We came within 30 seconds of being dumped out by Slovakia yesterday, and an individual moment of brilliance saved our skin again. We are still a very badly coached and dysfunctional team, Bellingham’s individual moment hasn’t changed that. The narrative actually makes loads of sense when you dig a little bit deeper than the most basic surface level imaginable.
 
MikeH72 said:
Who did we get knocked out by in all of those tournaments?

Did we ever go through to the semi finals without playing anybody of any note at all.

All comes down to tournament draws at the end of the day. We came within 30 seconds of being dumped out by Slovakia yesterday, and an individual moment of brilliance saved our skin again. We are still a very badly coached and dysfunctional team, Bellingham’s individual moment hasn’t changed that. The narrative actually makes loads of sense when you dig a little bit deeper than the most basic surface level imaginable.
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Southgate has badly set up this team. Cba going right into it. Bringing an unfit left back was criminal with no other options other than a right back. Its painful watching trippier constantly checking inside.
But its more the perception of England in this country at almost every tournament. The opposition are always dismissed as nothings that we should be breezing past. There is without a doubt an air of arrogance. Its gone on most of my living life to be a coincedence that its just the current manager at whatever tournament it happens to be.
England just aren't as good as the hype.
 
Gilbert.. said:
Southgate has badly set up this team. Cba going right into it. Bringing an unfit left back was criminal with no other options other than a right back. Its painful watching trippier constantly checking inside.
But its more the perception of England in this country at almost every tournament. The opposition are always dismissed as nothings that we should be breezing past. There is without a doubt an air of arrogance. Its gone on most of my living life to be a coincedence that its just the current manager at whatever tournament it happens to be.
England just aren't as good as the hype.
Click to expand...

That’s fair enough, but our current squad of players actually does warrant being one of the favourites when you look around at other teams.
 
MikeH72 said:
That’s fair enough, but our current squad of players actually does warrant being one of the favourites when you look around at other teams.
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Ish.
I think they're last 8/4 and then a bit of luck needed.
I read last night people going on about declan rice is a 100m midfielder. He should be bossing these games. Thats 100m premier league price. He's an ok player but he's not outstanding. I dont think saka is anything great either. The defence doesnt look anything like a tournament level looking defence. I didnt think kane did anything apart from that header last night.

Player i think does look like he could be great at this level is mainoo.

England so far havent surprised me at all. Bungled their way through the group.
They could still do ok and just as much bomb out v switzerland. I wouldnt be surprised at either.
They should have brought calvert lewin. He'd have sorted these european defences out.
 
Personally I just don't think you can judge a player effectively while they are playing under Southgate.

Not a single one of these players plays like this for their clubs. How many times has Rice, Stones, Saka, Walker, Trippier, Foden, etc. been so unsure of passing the ball. It looks as though 1: They are scared to pass, taking far too many touches 2: There is no movement ahead of them. It looks most of the time it is more the the former.

The striking difference between Spain and England was notable. Every player, one touch and straight away looking for a pass and most of the time the first instinct is a forward pass.

There were far too many moments in wide positions where an England player had the perfect opportunity to cross first time, or at least control and then cross but they took another touch and the Slovakia player was on them. Spain, one touch cross, one touch pass to break the line, etc.

Switzerland will, without breaking a sweat, win easily, if England play like that again.
 

Gilbert.. said:
Southgate has badly set up this team. Cba going right into it. Bringing an unfit left back was criminal with no other options other than a right back. Its painful watching trippier constantly checking inside.
But its more the perception of England in this country at almost every tournament. The opposition are always dismissed as nothings that we should be breezing past. There is without a doubt an air of arrogance. Its gone on most of my living life to be a coincedence that its just the current manager at whatever tournament it happens to be.
England just aren't as good as the hype.
Click to expand...
English players - or more accurately, English Premier League players - are largely over-rated. It's not a coincidence that the two players who saved England yesterday - their two genuinely world-class players - both play for superclubs abroad.
 
wandyr79 said:
Personally I just don't think you can judge a player effectively while they are playing under Southgate.

Not a single one of these players plays like this for their clubs. How many times has Rice, Stones, Saka, Walker, Trippier, Foden, etc. been so unsure of passing the ball. It looks as though 1: They are scared to pass, taking far too many touches 2: There is no movement ahead of them. It looks most of the time it is more the the former.

The striking difference between Spain and England was notable. Every player, one touch and straight away looking for a pass and most of the time the first instinct is a forward pass.

There were far too many moments in wide positions where an England player had the perfect opportunity to cross first time, or at least control and then cross but they took another touch and the Slovakia player was on them. Spain, one touch cross, one touch pass to break the line, etc.

Switzerland will, without breaking a sweat, win easily, if England play like that again.
Click to expand...

Have heard that highlighted bit for donkeys years. Just replace the managers. Esp with names like gerrard. I personally think club and international football are very different. The hollywood passes gerrard used to try at international level always found him out.
Trippier in the last few months in the premier league was absolute gash. His performance against Everton at Goodison was greatly appreciated as it was so bad.
i agree totally about being scared and apprehensive though in an England shirt. Thats very evident. Part of that imo is back to this hype expectation. You can even hear in this tournament booing as england played it around at the back.
 
Drico said:
English players - or more accurately, English Premier League players - are largely over-rated. It's not a coincidence that the two players who saved England yesterday - their two genuinely world-class players - both play for superclubs abroad.
Click to expand...

Just sticking with the current tournament. Im already seeing that. I dont think declan rice is a bad player at all. But reading the nonsense about him in the last week or so about how he should be running the midfield in an international tournament just sums up how over hyped the premier league is.
 
wandyr79 said:
Personally I just don't think you can judge a player effectively while they are playing under Southgate.

Not a single one of these players plays like this for their clubs. How many times has Rice, Stones, Saka, Walker, Trippier, Foden, etc. been so unsure of passing the ball. It looks as though 1: They are scared to pass, taking far too many touches 2: There is no movement ahead of them. It looks most of the time it is more the the former.

The striking difference between Spain and England was notable. Every player, one touch and straight away looking for a pass and most of the time the first instinct is a forward pass.

There were far too many moments in wide positions where an England player had the perfect opportunity to cross first time, or at least control and then cross but they took another touch and the Slovakia player was on them. Spain, one touch cross, one touch pass to break the line, etc.

Switzerland will, without breaking a sweat, win easily, if England play like that again.
Click to expand...

The only player that looked to take a risk with his passing was Palmer, and I can guarantee Southgate was fuming about it.

It's like they've been drilled to play the easy pass every time, zero risk, play the percentage garbage.

He'll change nothing because as far as he's concerned, it's working. It's infuriating.
 
Gilbert.. said:
Have heard that highlighted bit for donkeys years. Just replace the managers. Esp with names like gerrard. I personally think club and international football are very different. The hollywood passes gerrard used to try at international level always found him out.
Trippier in the last few months in the premier league was absolute gash. His performance against Everton at Goodison was greatly appreciated as it was so bad.
i agree totally about being scared and apprehensive though in an England shirt. Thats very evident. Part of that imo is back to this hype expectation. You can even hear in this tournament booing as england played it around at the back.
Click to expand...

You have a good point.

I think it is always difficult to pin point the one fault. I just feel these players are good enough, they just need a manager that is able to utilise them properly. I suppose that has been the case previously but in a different way. Other managers have not been able to get the team to be nice to each other and play for the team, they had their egos and that got in the way of any cohesion.

Southgate has set the right attitude in the players and Rice's recent comments speak volumes about how the players respect Southgate. That is not an issue but when these players follow orders they simply cannot cope with, it becomes an issue. I don't mind a pragmatic way of playing but there has to be some balance and these players are easily good enough to be allowed a bit of freedom, now and again.

International football is a different beast as you get all these players with different mindsets and different ways of playing. How do you get them to gel, with only a few weeks/days prep time. Southgate has accomplished the gelling bit but now that becomes an issue because he needs to come out of his shell and compromise a bit and allow a few of the attacking players to play with their natural flair.
 

wandyr79 said:
You have a good point.

I think it is always difficult to pin point the one fault. I just feel these players are good enough, they just need a manager that is able to utilise them properly. I suppose that has been the case previously but in a different way. Other managers have not been able to get the team to be nice to each other and play for the team, they had their egos and that got in the way of any cohesion.

Southgate has set the right attitude in the players and Rice's recent comments speak volumes about how the players respect Southgate. That is not an issue but when these players follow orders they simply cannot cope with, it becomes an issue. I don't mind a pragmatic way of playing but there has to be some balance and these players are easily good enough to be allowed a bit of freedom, now and again.

International football is a different beast as you get all these players with different mindsets and different ways of playing. How do you get them to gel, with only a few weeks/days prep time. Southgate has accomplished the gelling bit but now that becomes an issue because he needs to come out of his shell and compromise a bit and allow a few of the attacking players to play with their natural flair.
Click to expand...

Great post with some nail on head points.
I didnt mind southgate for a few years and he did get rid of the clique groups within the camp.
He has gone stale though and his negative approach is very evident now. You can see he's chomping at the bit to get connor gallagher on that pitch. Secretly i think he'd love to start him every game. He's his new jordan henderson.
 

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