History

Bohemian Toffee said:
I don't know if I agree with the comparison. Sarajevo was the capital of a territory that was formally annexed to the Austrians in 1908, having been agreed by treaty in 1878 as under Austrian administration. The years following Bosnia's formal annexation were complicated, but it can be argued that Serbia was making moves to extend trading relations with the empire. It was precisely the thawing of relations between Vienna and Belgrade that spurred the nationalists into action.

Franz Ferdinand would have been aware of Serbian economic reforms, moves towards trade deals, as far as I know he wasn't made aware of ultra-nationalists perceiving his supposed moderation as a mortal threat for them.

Heydrich drove in an open topped car as a sign that he deemed German occupation of Bohemia, Moravia as complete, enduring and beyond challenge. I agree hubris on his part, performative or sincerely believed, it would cost him his life.

At best I would lay a charge of naivety at Franz Ferdinand, poor local planning and local intelligence failings. Heydrich, hubris, no question.
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He'd been told of threats against him but ignored them.

“We’re entitled to ask ourselves why, at this point, the archduke didn’t simply call the visit off,” Christopher Clark, a professor of modern European history at the University of Cambridge and author of The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War, told NPR’s All Things Considered in 2014.

“That was proposed by some members of his entourage,” said Clark, “but he hated being told what to do. He was a very irritable man, and he said ‘don’t be ridiculous.’”

Instead, the group continued on to Sarajevo’s city hall, where they met with dignitaries including the mayor, who failed to alter his prepared speech about the happy and “enthusiastic” greeting Sarajevo’s citizens were offering to the archduke
 
summerisle said:
He'd been told of threats against him but ignored them.

“We’re entitled to ask ourselves why, at this point, the archduke didn’t simply call the visit off,” Christopher Clark, a professor of modern European history at the University of Cambridge and author of The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War, told NPR’s All Things Considered in 2014.

“That was proposed by some members of his entourage,” said Clark, “but he hated being told what to do. He was a very irritable man, and he said ‘don’t be ridiculous.’”

Instead, the group continued on to Sarajevo’s city hall, where they met with dignitaries including the mayor, who failed to alter his prepared speech about the happy and “enthusiastic” greeting Sarajevo’s citizens were offering to the archduke
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Excellent point, thank you.
 
Bohemian Toffee said:
I don't know if I agree with the comparison. Sarajevo was the capital of a territory that was formally annexed to the Austrians in 1908, having been agreed by treaty in 1878 as under Austrian administration. The years following Bosnia's formal annexation were complicated, but it can be argued that Serbia was making moves to extend trading relations with the empire. It was precisely the thawing of relations between Vienna and Belgrade that spurred the nationalists into action.

Franz Ferdinand would have been aware of Serbian economic reforms, moves towards trade deals, as far as I know he wasn't made aware of ultra-nationalists perceiving his supposed moderation as a mortal threat for them.

Heydrich drove in an open topped car as a sign that he deemed German occupation of Bohemia, Moravia as complete, enduring and beyond challenge. I agree hubris on his part, performative or sincerely believed, it would cost him his life.

At best I would lay a charge of naivety at Franz Ferdinand, poor local planning and local intelligence failings. Heydrich, hubris, no question.
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It was more about fear of Russia from Viennese point of view.
Basically war hawks in Vienna wanted to crush (new) country of Serbia because they saw it nothing more than Russian pawn used to destabilize Austro-Hungarian Empire. So assassination was perfect excuse for invasion.

From what i read about Archduke himself, apparently he was aware of weakness of his empire and anti-war figure, also had idea about reforming his empire into kind of multi-national federation in attempt to save it (but that was opposed by nationalistic minded Hungarians who didn't wanted to share power with Poles, Czechs, Yugoslavs etc....).

Though common historical consensus seemed to be that Austro-Hungarian Empire was doomed anyway and beyond the saving, war or no war, nationalism was too powerful force for old fashion dynastic empire to survive.
 
King George V's telegram to his cousin Prince Henry of Germany, last ditch effort to stop outbreak of WW1 by offering compromise (Halt in Belgrade), July 30, 1914.
(William and Nicky mentioned are his cousins Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas)

516nnnjubuo71.jpg
 

summerisle said:
No wonder he needed brandy.
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4aa80eba-55e7-4137-b383-0676879efe9b_text.gif
 

stipe said:
Napoleon battles around Europe (under his personal command)


View attachment 236392
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A little know fact about Beethoven's 3rd symphony:

"Beethoven originally dedicated the third symphony to Napoleon Bonaparte, whom he believed embodied the democratic and anti-monarchical ideals of the French Revolution. In the autumn of 1804, Beethoven withdrew his dedication of the third symphony to Napoleon, lest it cost him the composer's fee paid him by a noble patron; so, Beethoven re-dedicated his third symphony to Prince Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowitz – nonetheless, despite such a bread-and-butter consideration, the politically idealistic Beethoven titled the work "Bonaparte". Later, about the composer's response to Napoleon having proclaimed himself Emperor of the French (14 May 1804), Beethoven's secretary, Ferdinand Ries said that:

'In writing this symphony, Beethoven had been thinking of Bonaparte, but Bonaparte while he was First Consul. At that time Beethoven had the highest esteem for him, and compared him to the greatest consuls of Ancient Rome. Not only I, but many of Beethoven's closer friends, saw this symphony on his table, beautifully copied in manuscript, with the word "Bonaparte" inscribed at the very top of the title-page and "Ludwig van Beethoven" at the very bottom ... I was the first to tell him the news that Bonaparte had declared himself Emperor, whereupon he broke into a rage and exclaimed, "So he is no more than a common mortal! Now, too, he will tread under foot all the rights of Man, indulge only his ambition; now he will think himself superior to all men, become a tyrant!" Beethoven went to the table, seized the top of the title-page, tore it in half and threw it on the floor. The page had to be recopied, and it was only now that the symphony received the title Sinfonia eroica.'"
 
Tommy Chong said:
A little know fact about Beethoven's 3rd symphony:

"Beethoven originally dedicated the third symphony to Napoleon Bonaparte, whom he believed embodied the democratic and anti-monarchical ideals of the French Revolution. In the autumn of 1804, Beethoven withdrew his dedication of the third symphony to Napoleon, lest it cost him the composer's fee paid him by a noble patron; so, Beethoven re-dedicated his third symphony to Prince Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowitz – nonetheless, despite such a bread-and-butter consideration, the politically idealistic Beethoven titled the work "Bonaparte". Later, about the composer's response to Napoleon having proclaimed himself Emperor of the French (14 May 1804), Beethoven's secretary, Ferdinand Ries said that:

'In writing this symphony, Beethoven had been thinking of Bonaparte, but Bonaparte while he was First Consul. At that time Beethoven had the highest esteem for him, and compared him to the greatest consuls of Ancient Rome. Not only I, but many of Beethoven's closer friends, saw this symphony on his table, beautifully copied in manuscript, with the word "Bonaparte" inscribed at the very top of the title-page and "Ludwig van Beethoven" at the very bottom ... I was the first to tell him the news that Bonaparte had declared himself Emperor, whereupon he broke into a rage and exclaimed, "So he is no more than a common mortal! Now, too, he will tread under foot all the rights of Man, indulge only his ambition; now he will think himself superior to all men, become a tyrant!" Beethoven went to the table, seized the top of the title-page, tore it in half and threw it on the floor. The page had to be recopied, and it was only now that the symphony received the title Sinfonia eroica.'"
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Maybe Napoleon started idealistic but by the end he become power obsessed tyrant.

As he famously said to Austrian Chancellor Prince Metternich in 1813 when Metternich tried to persuade him to make peace after Russian disaster

"You cannot stop me; I spend 30,000 lives a month"
 
stipe said:
Maybe Napoleon started idealistic but by the end he become power obsessed tyrant.

As he famously said to Austrian Chancellor Prince Metternich in 1813 when Metternich tried to persuade him to make peace after Russian disaster

"You cannot stop me; I spend 30,000 lives a month"
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'Short man syndrome'... It has to be.

One man's deeply embedded insecurities destroyed most of Europe!
 
Tommy Chong said:
'Short man syndrome'... It has to be.

One man's deeply embedded insecurities destroyed most of Europe!
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Entire country adores you, thousands of young soldiers sees you as walking Godlike figure and are willing to charge into their deaths for you.
Imagine what something like that does to your ego

He was simply addicted to war, after his first defeat in 1814 and exile to tiny island of Elba he still decided to return and try again despite all the Great Powers and rest of Europe standing united against him and France itself being totally exhausted after almost 25 years of endless war

Interesting fact, main Allied countries (Britain, Austria, Russia, Prussia) didn't declared war to France in 1815, they proclaimed Napoleon outlaw and declared war directly to him.
 
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