Install the app
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

 

Holgate Racially Abused By Firmino - The Guardian

Status
Not open for further replies.
davek said:
More from RAWK:

Jillc: "Exactly how I feel about it, the headlines from some of the media yesterday when the news broke about it was depressing. It feels like everything has been done to support Holgate in making the accusation (which is fine, as players need to be able to come forward). But it leaves enough smoke there, for those who want to imply Roberto's "guilt." A better worded statement could have supported the process and been much clearer in dismissing any lingering doubts"

Redalways: "People will still think there is no smoke without fire. The FA in their statement are bending over backwards to exonerate Holgate from any malciousness. They have not said that about Bobby merely the evidential threshold hasnt been passed. I for one find the whole thing unsatisfactory and would be pissed off if I was Bobby."

Haggis36: "I think they'd have been better served by going down the route of stressing it being a misunderstanding that has since been resolved as it covers both bases, rather than the relatively weak "insufficient evidence" which can and will be interpreted negatively."

Rich87: "Its also not case closed, because the FA with there poorly worded statement as discussed haven't closed the case - they have found 'insufficient evidence' rather than no evidence as they should have put. It will continue to leave doubt in the mind of some that Firmino is a racist and that makes me feel sad for him and his family."

ArcticRed: "They can easily say there's no evidence to support the claim. That would be final. To say there's insufficient evidence comes off as them believing he said it, but not being able to prove it."

Djozer: "This doubt means that there will, in some people's eyes, always be some people in the football world who believe Firmino is either a racist or, at the very least, used a racial slur - the whole "no smoke without fire" mentality"


To be fair to that forum they had quite a reasoned debate...which staggered me a bit knowing what cultist fruit cakes they are usually.

The general view seems to be that Firmino has been left far short of exoneration. And rightly so.
Click to expand...

State of that one calling other fan bases cultist fruitcakes.
 
Skamp said:
That's you choosing to interpret to suit your own narrative/agenda. The only "evidence" any on us are aware of is the Holgate's claim. That is it! If you or anyone else are aware of any other "evidence", please feel free to share with us.

A couple of points; the tribalism from both sides here has been unreal. The amount of Evertonians certain of Firmino's guilt and Liverpool fans certain Holgate has made false claims, beggars belief.

Firmino may have made a racist slur, but there absolutely is no evidence of that. It would seem strange that Firmino would launch into a tirade in one language, then turn to English to utter one word (THAT word) to Holgate, that only Holgate would hear, but no-one else around hears, plus nothing picked up by lip-reading interpreters (Kenny's head being the way does not prove that Firmino said anything!). Maybe that did happen, but if you park tribalism aside and try to be neutral for a moment, it seems unlikely. None of us know the character of Firmino (as we don't know him personally), but he doesn't seem to be the nasty ####er Suarez was, and it would seem a lot more out of character in comparison to Suarez (IMHO).

The name of this thread says it all as to where Everton fans lie with this; guilty!

On the other hand, Liverpool fans trawling through Holgate's twitter account to find something on him is pathetic and irrelevant. Also, them saying that Holgate has clearly falsely accused Firmino of racism to avoid being sent off for the shove. Again. maybe it's true and maybe not, but again there is no evidence to support this. Again, none of us know the character of Holgate (as we don't know him personally), but to suggest he'd falsely claim something so serious to avoid sanctions on the pitch are ludicrous, given the facts we have.

On the balance of probabilities, from what we know, from the "evidence" we have (Holgate's accusation), the most likely outcome is that Holgate thought he heard Firmino say THE word, but misheard what was said. The 193 pages of mostly confirming Firmino's guilt on here, is a joke!

Maybe there's a reason why EFC have not come out and publicly backed Holgate here. Suggestions that you're scared to take Liverpool all the way on this because they're the media darlings (as a lot on here seem to think) are a bit misguided, give what happened to Suarez.

This is looking a lot like RAWK at the moment (maybe BAWG).
Click to expand...
Nice post where you've tried to show some even handedness. However you portray me crudely. I stick with the facts. The facts are that the FA, should they have wanted to do so, had the right to state that there was no evidence to back up Holgate's claims and dismiss the case robustly (and rapidly). They did neither. They underlined the point that Holgate was justified to bring his suspicions up for investigation AND they found that, though the weight of evidence was not in sufficient volume to charge Firmino, it was not a case of an absence of evidence, merely insufficient supply of it.

The conclusion is ambiguous and not to the satisfaction of either Everton or Liverpool supporters.
 
smeecanyousee said:
I find it embarrassing that some fans of Liverpool can not entertain the thought that Holgate genuinely believed he heard what he thought he heard whether it was correct or not the same way I find it embarrassing that some Everton fans can't entertain the thought no racial abuse actually happened. The hysteria and conspiracy theorising on both sides is ridiculous just because of historical rivarly and some petty dislike for each other. An accusation was made by somebody who believes he heard racial abuse. It was investigated. The overwhelming evidence was he heard incorrectly. Nothing to bring a charge over. End of
Click to expand...
No mate, this is "end of":

The facts are that the FA, should they have wanted to do so, had the right to state that there was no evidence to back up Holgate's claims and dismiss the case robustly (and rapidly). They did neither. They underlined the point that Holgate was justified to bring his suspicions up for investigation AND they found that, though the weight of evidence was not in sufficient volume to charge Firmino, it was not a case of an absence of evidence, merely insufficient supply of it.
 
Steve0 said:
Tbh it's just my feeling but think it's their BME users who have been calling the erm...less racially aware members on their inherent racism and reminding them that black people are just as human as them so if they think they've been racially abused they have the right to say so.

So many of them want Holgate to have made it up to validate their, let's say, less than progressive views.
Click to expand...
Sounds about right, yeah.

I feel sorry for them. Uphill battle they have there at Klanfield.
 

Steve0 said:
Also another trope is 'if bobby (cringe) said something I'd be the first to condemn him'.

Except literally NONE of you has condemned Suarez to this day. In fact you put Evra on trial and convicted him of lying despite Suarez himself admitting Evra didn't lie.

Absolute weapons.
Click to expand...
They thought it was great to drag Uruguayan experts in Montevideo barrio scatology to trip Suarez up!

Their like the Manson Family.
 

davek said:
No mate, this is "end of":

The facts are that the FA, should they have wanted to do so, had the right to state that there was no evidence to back up Holgate's claims and dismiss the case robustly (and rapidly). They did neither. They underlined the point that Holgate was justified to bring his suspicions up for investigation AND they found that, though the weight of evidence was not in sufficient volume to charge Firmino, it was not a case of an absence of evidence, merely insufficient supply of it.
Click to expand...

to be fair, he's summarised it pretty well

you keep banging on about what the FA have said, realistically what do you want them to say?

"err there is no evidence to support holgates claim so we think he is chatting major turd and he is a pyar liar"

it is what it is, Holgate thinks he's heard something ( he very well might of ) but no one of the players around him, the ref or the cameras can back his claim up therefor firminho cannot be charged

what do you think should have happened? do you think because he made the claim they should have just banned him on holgates word because that ridiculous
 
davek said:
More from RAWK:

Jillc: "Exactly how I feel about it, the headlines from some of the media yesterday when the news broke about it was depressing. It feels like everything has been done to support Holgate in making the accusation (which is fine, as players need to be able to come forward). But it leaves enough smoke there, for those who want to imply Roberto's "guilt." A better worded statement could have supported the process and been much clearer in dismissing any lingering doubts"

Redalways: "People will still think there is no smoke without fire. The FA in their statement are bending over backwards to exonerate Holgate from any malciousness. They have not said that about Bobby merely the evidential threshold hasnt been passed. I for one find the whole thing unsatisfactory and would be pissed off if I was Bobby."

Haggis36: "I think they'd have been better served by going down the route of stressing it being a misunderstanding that has since been resolved as it covers both bases, rather than the relatively weak "insufficient evidence" which can and will be interpreted negatively."

Rich87: "Its also not case closed, because the FA with there poorly worded statement as discussed haven't closed the case - they have found 'insufficient evidence' rather than no evidence as they should have put. It will continue to leave doubt in the mind of some that Firmino is a racist and that makes me feel sad for him and his family."

ArcticRed: "They can easily say there's no evidence to support the claim. That would be final. To say there's insufficient evidence comes off as them believing he said it, but not being able to prove it."

Djozer: "This doubt means that there will, in some people's eyes, always be some people in the football world who believe Firmino is either a racist or, at the very least, used a racial slur - the whole "no smoke without fire" mentality"


To be fair to that forum they had quite a reasoned debate...which staggered me a bit knowing what cultist fruit cakes they are usually.

The general view seems to be that Firmino has been left far short of exoneration. And rightly so.
Click to expand...

Those members will all be banned by now Dave for having a reasoned debate.
 
Skamp said:
That's you choosing to interpret to suit your own narrative/agenda. The only "evidence" any on us are aware of is the Holgate's claim. That is it! If you or anyone else are aware of any other "evidence", please feel free to share with us.

A couple of points; the tribalism from both sides here has been unreal. The amount of Evertonians certain of Firmino's guilt and Liverpool fans certain Holgate has made false claims, beggars belief.

Firmino may have made a racist slur, but there absolutely is no evidence of that. It would seem strange that Firmino would launch into a tirade in one language, then turn to English to utter one word (THAT word) to Holgate, that only Holgate would hear, but no-one else around hears, plus nothing picked up by lip-reading interpreters (Kenny's head being the way does not prove that Firmino said anything!). Maybe that did happen, but if you park tribalism aside and try to be neutral for a moment, it seems unlikely. None of us know the character of Firmino (as we don't know him personally), but he doesn't seem to be the nasty ####er Suarez was, and it would seem a lot more out of character in comparison to Suarez (IMHO).

The name of this thread says it all as to where Everton fans lie with this; guilty!

On the other hand, Liverpool fans trawling through Holgate's twitter account to find something on him is pathetic and irrelevant. Also, them saying that Holgate has clearly falsely accused Firmino of racism to avoid being sent off for the shove. Again. maybe it's true and maybe not, but again there is no evidence to support this. Again, none of us know the character of Holgate (as we don't know him personally), but to suggest he'd falsely claim something so serious to avoid sanctions on the pitch are ludicrous, given the facts we have.

On the balance of probabilities, from what we know, from the "evidence" we have (Holgate's accusation), the most likely outcome is that Holgate thought he heard Firmino say THE word, but misheard what was said. The 193 pages of mostly confirming Firmino's guilt on here, is a joke!

Maybe there's a reason why EFC have not come out and publicly backed Holgate here. Suggestions that you're scared to take Liverpool all the way on this because they're the media darlings (as a lot on here seem to think) are a bit misguided, give what happened to Suarez.

This is looking a lot like RAWK at the moment (maybe BAWG).
Click to expand...

Good post mate.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome to GrandOldTeam

Get involved. Registration is simple and free.

Register
Back
Top