So absolutely no evidence then...
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Holgate Racially Abused By Firmino - The Guardian
- Thread starter Zezti
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davek
Player Valuation: £150m
More from RAWK:
Jillc: "Exactly how I feel about it, the headlines from some of the media yesterday when the news broke about it was depressing. It feels like everything has been done to support Holgate in making the accusation (which is fine, as players need to be able to come forward). But it leaves enough smoke there, for those who want to imply Roberto's "guilt." A better worded statement could have supported the process and been much clearer in dismissing any lingering doubts"
Redalways: "People will still think there is no smoke without fire. The FA in their statement are bending over backwards to exonerate Holgate from any malciousness. They have not said that about Bobby merely the evidential threshold hasnt been passed. I for one find the whole thing unsatisfactory and would be pissed off if I was Bobby."
Haggis36: "I think they'd have been better served by going down the route of stressing it being a misunderstanding that has since been resolved as it covers both bases, rather than the relatively weak "insufficient evidence" which can and will be interpreted negatively."
Rich87: "Its also not case closed, because the FA with there poorly worded statement as discussed haven't closed the case - they have found 'insufficient evidence' rather than no evidence as they should have put. It will continue to leave doubt in the mind of some that Firmino is a racist and that makes me feel sad for him and his family."
ArcticRed: "They can easily say there's no evidence to support the claim. That would be final. To say there's insufficient evidence comes off as them believing he said it, but not being able to prove it."
Djozer: "This doubt means that there will, in some people's eyes, always be some people in the football world who believe Firmino is either a racist or, at the very least, used a racial slur - the whole "no smoke without fire" mentality"
To be fair to that forum they had quite a reasoned debate...which staggered me a bit knowing what cultist fruit cakes they are usually.
The general view seems to be that Firmino has been left far short of exoneration. And rightly so.
Jillc: "Exactly how I feel about it, the headlines from some of the media yesterday when the news broke about it was depressing. It feels like everything has been done to support Holgate in making the accusation (which is fine, as players need to be able to come forward). But it leaves enough smoke there, for those who want to imply Roberto's "guilt." A better worded statement could have supported the process and been much clearer in dismissing any lingering doubts"
Redalways: "People will still think there is no smoke without fire. The FA in their statement are bending over backwards to exonerate Holgate from any malciousness. They have not said that about Bobby merely the evidential threshold hasnt been passed. I for one find the whole thing unsatisfactory and would be pissed off if I was Bobby."
Haggis36: "I think they'd have been better served by going down the route of stressing it being a misunderstanding that has since been resolved as it covers both bases, rather than the relatively weak "insufficient evidence" which can and will be interpreted negatively."
Rich87: "Its also not case closed, because the FA with there poorly worded statement as discussed haven't closed the case - they have found 'insufficient evidence' rather than no evidence as they should have put. It will continue to leave doubt in the mind of some that Firmino is a racist and that makes me feel sad for him and his family."
ArcticRed: "They can easily say there's no evidence to support the claim. That would be final. To say there's insufficient evidence comes off as them believing he said it, but not being able to prove it."
Djozer: "This doubt means that there will, in some people's eyes, always be some people in the football world who believe Firmino is either a racist or, at the very least, used a racial slur - the whole "no smoke without fire" mentality"
To be fair to that forum they had quite a reasoned debate...which staggered me a bit knowing what cultist fruit cakes they are usually.
The general view seems to be that Firmino has been left far short of exoneration. And rightly so.
I love the way they make out it's accidentally been worded that way - 'no evidence as they should have put' - rather than thinking there's a good reason why they haven't said 'no evidence', as there is some.
smeecanyousee
Player Valuation: Free Transfer
He's not been charged with anything therefore there's nothing he can be proven innocent or guilty of. You talk about weight of evidence but the FA investigation showed there is not enough evidence to bring a charge. That's not to say there was no evidence as obviously Holgate made an accusation that has to serve as form of evidence. It's in the FA statement clear as a bell:
"The evidence for the allegation came from Holgate. During a fixture between Liverpool and Everton on 5 January 2018, Holgate alleged that he had heard Firmino use a discriminatory term towards him."
The FA can't discount that because it would be wrong to do so as that is likely what Holgate believed he heard. The other evidence investigated by the FA appears to outweigh this accusation/evidence:
"We took statements from a total of 12 players and officials from both teams, the match referee and the fourth official. None of these individuals directly heard the words alleged to have been said by Firmino."
"As part of the investigation, The FA sought the assistance of a Brazilian/Portuguese linguistic specialist on the words alleged. In addition to this, we also obtained multiple angles of video footage, including broadcast and unseen footage showing the incident, which was assessed by two independent Portuguese speaking lip reading experts."
Thus the conclusion of the investigation is there simply is no charge to bring. No charge means no verdict of guilt or innocence
I find it embarrassing that some fans of Liverpool can not entertain the thought that Holgate genuinely believed he heard what he thought he heard whether it was correct or not the same way I find it embarrassing that some Everton fans can't entertain the thought no racial abuse actually happened. The hysteria and conspiracy theorising on both sides is ridiculous just because of historical rivarly and some petty dislike for each other. An accusation was made by somebody who believes he heard racial abuse. It was investigated. The overwhelming evidence was he heard incorrectly. Nothing to bring a charge over. End of
Or the FA are thinking that further evidence may come forward and were playing it safe.
Haha. Exactly.
Dabluez
Player Valuation: £750k
You can't find someone innocent though can you Dave. That isn't what the process was about. It was about finding things to corroborate Mason's allegation. Instead of accepting that you have come up with yet another tin foil hat conspiracy theory to feed your obsession.
This isn't about facts or what actually happened this is about you coming to a conclusion and then desperately cherry picking the most obscure titbits, whilst ignoring overwhelming evidence to try and back up your hatred. Rational people look at the evidence, assess it and THEN come to a conclusion. You are the Donald Trump of GOT desperately trying to fuel hatred.
Within minutes of the incident with absolutely no evidence you came to a conclusion that Firmino was a racist and then branded him a Neo Nazi. Racism, Heysel, a man being brutally attacked, they aren't important to you it is all about finding weapons to fuel your hatred.
This isn't about any of the above or Everton it's fans or players it is about you feeding your ego. Oh look at me I am Everton's vilest fan.
Stuartisitc1878
Player Valuation: £25m
Firmino has released a statement. He doesn't just take the moral high ground he sticks a flag in it and claims it for his own. Fully expect the LFC machine to do all they can to make him out to be a victim.
Jacko93
Player Valuation: £35m
Maybe, just maybe, Firmino Racially abused Holgate, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it. I dunno, just chucking ideas out there.
Jacko93
Player Valuation: £35m
The trouble with this is, the Puta comment has only been brought into this by Liverpool fans looking for a way to make him not guilty. It was clearly not that comment that he reacted to, and therefore should not have been involved in the investigation. Those two incidents would both have to be investigated seperately. If they were to make comments about what the RS have claimed is the basis of the complaint, it would open up a whole can of worms as to what players can do or say in general on a football pitch. Can one player call the other a Pri*ck for example? DOes it matter what language the insult is said in.... you get my drift.
brigadier
Player Valuation: £10m
seen it half a dozen times since, its rare that a player ends up in the stand, make it a card and players will keep running into the crowd every time they are pushed.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
They can't seem to get their head around that because of cult reasons. However, they know, or sense, that the conclusion of the investigation does not exonerate Firmino.
It's a zero sum game for Kopites on everything, and they know that's not the outcome here.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Yes, good possibility that Firmino has walked onto one there last night with his unequivocal "I've never said anything like that ever before" statement. Hostage to fortune on that now.
Seathestars
Player Valuation: £60m
Is that what you think about your clubs horrific history.
You epitomise kopite mentality with that statement.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
No. The conclusion that could have been reached was 'no evidence to suggest racist slurs used'. They didn't do that. They stated 'insufficient evidence'.
As for my conspiracy theories: it seems it's one shared by our friends across the park, as they also see this case as very much still open to conjecture.
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