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I Hate Phil Neville

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Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
http://www.evertonfc.com/content/history/players-and-managers/club-captains

There are some absolute no brainers when you look at Captains who were better than Neville

Dixie Dean
Roy Vernon - Captain in 63 when the club won the League
Brian Lanone
Alan Ball
Howard Kendall
Mick Lyons
Kevin Ratcliffe
Dave Watson
Gary Speed
Duncan Ferguson

But look at the one season captains we've had in just my lifetime
Kevin Campbell
Alan Stubbs
David Weir
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Well, that's just it Mikey.

The fact Neville was captain for so long goes against him in my opinion.

And Kevin Campbell achieved more in four months than Neville did in eight seasons. No mistake.
 
catcherintherye said:
Well he is unsuccessful yes. I am not that makes him the worst captain ever though. Surely the player who captained us to relegation would be the worst ever if we use that logic?
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I could be wrong, but I think the same player (Ben Williams) also secured winning the second division.

I honestly think you'd struggle to find a Captain of Everton for a duration (season plus) to have been as disappointing.
 

GrandOldTeam said:
I could be wrong, but I think the same player (Ben Williams) also secured winning the second division.

I honestly think you'd struggle to find a Captain of Everton for a duration (season plus) to have been as disappointing.
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I think this comes down to your perspective then. I see Neville as a guy who captained us to victory at Wembley, who captained us to regularly finishing above Liverpool and regularly finishing in the top 6 and for that should be held in higher esteem.

I also think, captains of Everton who put transfer requests in to leave the club when we looked like we were going down are worse. What kind of an example does that set, to jump ship when the going gets tough?

I do appreciate for others, the view of not winning a trophy is 6-7 years will trump that. That's why football is a subjective game.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Perhaps he was a failure

But was he truly the worst though?
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He considers himself to be a failure, it's hard to disagree.

I've just skimmed over the captain list from the 50s onwards, in my opinion I would consider him the worst. The three you name, one saved us from relegation, one captained us for one season and saw us qualify for the Champions League and Weir was only captain for a season.

Nev also captained during a time when we actually had a decent team that bottled it frequently.
 
catcherintherye said:
I think this comes down to your perspective then. I see Neville as a guy who captained us to victory at Wembley, who captained us to regularly finishing above Liverpool and regularly finishing in the top 6 and for that should be held in higher esteem.

I also think, captains of Everton who put transfer requests in to leave the club when we looked like we were going down are worse. What kind of an example does that set, to jump ship when the going gets tough?

I do appreciate for others, the view of not winning a trophy is 6-7 years will trump that. That's why football is a subjective game.
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Really?

Can you help us out then and name a Captain with a more disappointing record than Neville since the 50s?

[Edit] Actually, don't worry. I appreciate/understand your view, but disagree ;)
 
GrandOldTeam said:
Really?

Can you help us out then and name a Captain with a more disappointing record than Neville since the 50s?
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Well I suppose that depends on how you define a "disappointing record" doesn't it? Lots of Everton captains have lower win ratio's and league finishing positions than Neville.

However I think we are getting bogged down in semantics. If you define worst captain as person who has gone longest without winning a trophy, then Neville is the worst.
The only question I would ask you, if with a side struggling to stay in the division, do you think it's acceptable practice as team captain to put a transfer request in from your boyhood team? To me that act is worse than any period of captaining a team to not win trophy's.
 

catcherintherye said:
Well I suppose that depends on how you define a "disappointing record" doesn't it? Lots of Everton captains have lower win ratio's and league finishing positions than Neville.

However I think we are getting bogged down in semantics. If you define worst captain as person who has gone longest without winning a trophy, then Neville is the worst.
The only question I would ask you, if with a side struggling to stay in the division, do you think it's acceptable practice as team captain to put a transfer request in from your boyhood team? To me that act is worse than any period of captaining a team to not win trophy's.
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All fair shouts and with regards to that question, that depends on the context. Of course, we can only judge on the facts we know, but...

What if that captain felt he had to leave to bring about necessary change?
What if that captain felt him remaining was worse for the Club?
What if the Clubs corrupt management, skint, had to engineer that sale? (Ball, Jeffers, Ferguson... Do I need to go on?)

I guess that depends on whether you trust the player, or Peter Johnson and co.
 
Tubey said:
You're talking tosh. You're attempting to claim someone can't have an opinion on people before the advent of television because it's impossible to research, which is pure horse manure. .
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No I'm not. I'm simply challenging your level of research as you haven't been able to defend your opinion to me at a level of which I have decided is sufficent

Tubey said:
What's your opinion on it? Again, it's a simple question - if he's not the worst Everton captain is, then who is? After all, it's a list of subjects - one can be subjectively the best, one the worst, same as our managers.
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My opinion is that there is no way to know until it is researched in more detail. It's not just something you say off the cuff. I'd first need to work out the criteria for measurement of a Capatains ability (or lack thereof) before I could accurately say what I thought. Off the top of my head, I'm not leaning towards him being the worst. I can say with more confidence that he wasn't one of the best. That's more of a no brainer because he never won anything, where as other captains did

Tubey said:
For example, Howard Kendall is acknowledged as the best manager in our history - are you saying that people can't have that view with absolutely certainty just because television cameras didn't exist in 1890?
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You couldn't view it was absolute certainty. Kendall is definately in the running though, due to his success

You're claim that Neville was the worst captain ever seems to hang soley on the fact he did a crap interview on Sky Sports. That and your admitted dislike for him. Sorry, but if we're going to say someone is the worst Everton Captain of all time, I'm going to need a little bit more than that

It's called a reasoned argument mate. You haven't made one since this began. I'm not prepared to saddle Phil Neville with such a tag based purely on your over the top hatred of him
 
GrandOldTeam said:
He considers himself to be a failure, it's hard to disagree.

I've just skimmed over the captain list from the 50s onwards, in my opinion I would consider him the worst. The three you name, one saved us from relegation, one captained us for one season and saw us qualify for the Champions League and Weir was only captain for a season.

Nev also captained during a time when we actually had a decent team that bottled it frequently.
Click to expand...

What about pre-50's though?

When someone like Tubey says he's the worst ever, that means he's worse than every captain the clubs ever had. We're talking over 100 years here.

Are you really 100% confident that Phil Neville deserves that tag? Can we really in all justification declare it to be so? Is there enough supporting evidence to saddle him with that?

What's more important? What carries more weight?

Trophies won
Ability as an individual player
Longevity
Popularity
Longterm effect on the club
Leadership ability
Work ethic
Setting an example for other players
What he did after Everton

Chip in with others where you feel appropriate

If you combine those factors all together, does he get the lowest score?

In your heart of hearts, above every single other captain, is he the worst?

Is that fair? Has someone like Tubey really thought about this in enough detail to fairly to bestow such a title on Neville? Or, does he just hate him so much that's indulged himself in some hyperbole?
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
What about pre-50's though?

When someone like Tubey says he's the worst ever, that means he's worse than every captain the clubs ever had. We're talking over 100 years here.

Are you really 100% confident that Phil Neville deserves that tag? Can we really in all justification declare it to be so? Is there enough supporting evidence to saddle him with that?

What's more important?
Trophies won
Quality as an individual player
Longevity
Popularity
Longterm effect on the club
Leadership ability
Work ethic
Setting an example for other players
What he did after Everton

Chip in with others where you feel appropriate

If you combine those factors all together, does he get the lowest score?

In your heart of hearts, above every single other captain, is he the worst?

Is that fair? Has someone like Tubey really thought about this in enough detail to fairly to bestow such a title on Neville? Or, does he just hate him so much that's indulged himself in some hyperbole?
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Alright. Off the fence then....

Tell us. Who is worse than Neville and why?

Personally, Neville is the worst Everton captain in my lifetime and my families living generation
 
GrandOldTeam said:
Alright.

Tell us. Who is worse than Neville and why?
Click to expand...

I honestly don't know. I'm just not happy to commit to Neville without researching it more

It's something where I'd have to sit down, look at the facts and have a real think

Again, if someone said that Neville was the worst since the 80's or worst since post-war, I wouldn't have as much an issue

But all time?

That's a heavy weight to drop on Phil Neville's shoulders, and I'm just not happy with agreeing with it as he did get to a Cup Final and he was a model pro and I just generally think he wasn't that bad

Can you see where I'm coming from here?

I've just got a feeling that one of the one season captains just has to be worse than him, either pre or post war. Neville was basically fine for 3-4 seasons. That puts him above a one season captain IMO, if only just.

If I had to say with the facts I already hold, he just about scrapes his way to being one of our weaker captains but not the worst
 

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