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John Stones

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Good lad and a great player.

Wish we could keep him. Anybody who genuinely wants rid of a player with his talent shouldn't be watching football.

If he does go, though, we'll get plenty of money in and it will up our revenue massively, meaning we can pay the higher fees and wages while still staying within our FFP limits.


Interesting thought i had mate, with us having to pay Barnsley 15% of the profit we make - so around the 6.6-7.5m mark depending what figures you believe for a final sale price, what's the odds that we are going to try to sort a payment of equivalent value to Barnsley to wave their sell on clause ...

If we are selling to free up wage space within the STCC guidelines then i would think that it would make perfect sense for us to go about it that way

@The Esk , would that actually be legal and do you think it's something the club has actually been trying to sort out?
 
Stones
Wanted by all the top clubs
Possible world record fee for a defender
English
Koeman could improve him
15% of any fee goes to barnsley

Yet people dont seem too bothered about selling him?
If a player is determined to leave, what can you do ?
It's not as if he has a ten year contract. He wanted to leave last year and if the reports are true and he is looking to leave again this summer, then the conclusion must be that he, and/or his agent are absolutely determined to go.

50M is an enormous amount of amont and if I were offered a swap of Mata and Witsel for Stones I would take it and that is effectively what may happen.

What I don't really understand is why he seems so absolutely determined to leave.
 
Interesting thought i had mate, with us having to pay Barnsley 15% of the profit we make - so around the 6.6-7.5m mark depending what figures you believe for a final sale price, what's the odds that we are going to try to sort a payment of equivalent value to Barnsley to wave their sell on clause ...

If we are selling to free up wage space within the STCC guidelines then i would think that it would make perfect sense for us to go about it that way

@The Esk , would that actually be legal and do you think it's something the club has actually been trying to sort out?

....I think we offered Barnsley £3m last summer as a pay out for that clause but they wisely rejected it.
 
I do think people should read @The Esk thread on wage cost implications to probably understand the bigger picture on the Stones front. I don't think it can be put into the Rooney/Rodwell/Arteta/Lescott/Jeffers/Ball camp where we reluctantly sold our best young talent. This is a means to an ends.

Nobody at the club would want to lose John Stones of that I'm certain. We certainly don't need to sell him to make up our transfer kitty that is there anyway and Koeman can sign pretty much any player he likes providing he can convince them to come. However there are real complications when it comes to wages. These are not restrictions placed on the club internally from lack of drive or ambition by the board but external factors from the Premier League. We can only raise wages 7 million a year.

In order to add the 4/5/6 top class international players we want too we need the funds and also a way to get around the wage restrictions. The funds are in place from Moshiri but the wages issue is thorny. We want to be a top 4 team and to do so we will have to probably double our wage bill to be in line with them. We are prevented from doing so. A short term solution is selling Stones for 50 million as it will allow us to raise our wages by 40 million this season on top of the 7 million allowance.

It really is a means to an end. There is a sadness to it but trading at the right moment is an important part of any business. Even if he does go on to be as good as Bobby Moore and captain England is the trade the right one for us to do now, to allow us to add an additional 40 million to our wage bill (IE 6 players on circa 140k per week?). That is the dilemma we are left with.

I understand people saying just trade our squad players. I have no problem with that and I would happily move on half a dozen squad players (for different reasons, mainly to allow a pathway for younger players but also to get rid of the ethos of failure). However we do have to be realistic in that it won't be easy to shift these lads on and we may end up making a loss on them (which defeats the object). The days when we could offload of squad players to poorer premier league teams is diminishing. All teams have lots of money and most would not be massively enthused about players such as Oviedo, Kone, Cleverley & Lennon. The money all the clubs have have opened doors to the foreign market. More foreign managers have also aided this process.

I see people plucking numbers for players we can sell, but there needs to be somebody willing to pay that figure otherwise it is irrelevant. We know somebody is willing to pay around 50 million for Stones so it becomes a concrete decision not one based in hopes or ambition.

I also appreciate some may look at some transfers and say Stones is undervalued. I would urge caution on this. Particularly in this window it is going to be crazy. There will always be examples of players going which will make Stones look cheap. There will also be players going that will make him look overpriced. Everyone will use Troy Deeney as their example. That's fair enough. However you can also get international Centre backs for half of the 50 million of what we'd get for Stones. I do think we shouldn't lose site of the end goal with Stones though, which is allowing us to trade more effectively.
 
....I think we offered Barnsley £3m last summer as a pay out for that clause but they wisely rejected it.

I remember that mate, i'm more thinking about offering them the exact fee we will have to anyway upon a sale just to circumnavigate having to give them the 7.5m which impacts our STCC when it's our goal to apparently raise it as much as we can do this summer.

Be a bit shady like but Barnsley come out of it the same, we come out significantly better due to giving us more room on wages etc
 

I do think people should read @The Esk thread on wage cost implications to probably understand the bigger picture on the Stones front. I don't think it can be put into the Rooney/Rodwell/Arteta/Lescott/Jeffers/Ball camp where we reluctantly sold our best young talent. This is a means to an ends.

Nobody at the club would want to lose John Stones of that I'm certain. We certainly don't need to sell him to make up our transfer kitty that is there anyway and Koeman can sign pretty much any player he likes providing he can convince them to come. However there are real complications when it comes to wages. These are not restrictions placed on the club internally from lack of drive or ambition by the board but external factors from the Premier League. We can only raise wages 7 million a year.

In order to add the 4/5/6 top class international players we want too we need the funds and also a way to get around the wage restrictions. The funds are in place from Moshiri but the wages issue is thorny. We want to be a top 4 team and to do so we will have to probably double our wage bill to be in line with them. We are prevented from doing so. A short term solution is selling Stones for 50 million as it will allow us to raise our wages by 40 million this season on top of the 7 million allowance.

It really is a means to an end. There is a sadness to it but trading at the right moment is an important part of any business. Even if he does go on to be as good as Bobby Moore and captain England is the trade the right one for us to do now, to allow us to add an additional 40 million to our wage bill (IE 6 players on circa 140k per week?). That is the dilemma we are left with.

I understand people saying just trade our squad players. I have no problem with that and I would happily move on half a dozen squad players (for different reasons, mainly to allow a pathway for younger players but also to get rid of the ethos of failure). However we do have to be realistic in that it won't be easy to shift these lads on and we may end up making a loss on them (which defeats the object). The days when we could offload of squad players to poorer premier league teams is diminishing. All teams have lots of money and most would not be massively enthused about players such as Oviedo, Kone, Cleverley & Lennon. The money all the clubs have have opened doors to the foreign market. More foreign managers have also aided this process.

I see people plucking numbers for players we can sell, but there needs to be somebody willing to pay that figure otherwise it is irrelevant. We know somebody is willing to pay around 50 million for Stones so it becomes a concrete decision not one based in hopes or ambition.

I also appreciate some may look at some transfers and say Stones is undervalued. I would urge caution on this. Particularly in this window it is going to be crazy. There will always be examples of players going which will make Stones look cheap. There will also be players going that will make him look overpriced. Everyone will use Troy Deeney as their example. That's fair enough. However you can also get international Centre backs for half of the 50 million of what we'd get for Stones. I do think we shouldn't lose site of the end goal with Stones though, which is allowing us to trade more effectively.

A very coherent, well-written summary.
Sad that we'll likely lose Stones, but if it is the means to an end, and the end we all aspire to of winning trophies, then that's the way it has to be.
 
Interesting thought i had mate, with us having to pay Barnsley 15% of the profit we make - so around the 6.6-7.5m mark depending what figures you believe for a final sale price, what's the odds that we are going to try to sort a payment of equivalent value to Barnsley to wave their sell on clause ...

guarantee to you mate the reason why the final fee for stones will be so high is because we are doing a liverpool and making city pay the fee at the same time. so the deal could be essentially worth 40 to us at the end of it all, but the extra is simply to pass over to barnsley as liverpool did with QPR.

If a player is determined to leave, what can you do ?
It's not as if he has a ten year contract. He wanted to leave last year and if the reports are true and he is looking to leave again this summer, then the conclusion
What I don't really understand is why he seems so absolutely determined to leave.

Said this many time, do you balme him after working under Martinez? The same manager the entire team stopped playing for by the end?

Granted things are different now but if the choice is staying at the mid tbale everton trying to rebuild or go and work with guadiola at a team playing at the highest level? the fact he isn't a blue goes a long way, any young lad would jump at that. In fact any of our players would jump at that opportunity, ross included.
 
I do think people should read @The Esk thread on wage cost implications to probably understand the bigger picture on the Stones front. I don't think it can be put into the Rooney/Rodwell/Arteta/Lescott/Jeffers/Ball camp where we reluctantly sold our best young talent. This is a means to an ends.

Nobody at the club would want to lose John Stones of that I'm certain. We certainly don't need to sell him to make up our transfer kitty that is there anyway and Koeman can sign pretty much any player he likes providing he can convince them to come. However there are real complications when it comes to wages. These are not restrictions placed on the club internally from lack of drive or ambition by the board but external factors from the Premier League. We can only raise wages 7 million a year.

In order to add the 4/5/6 top class international players we want too we need the funds and also a way to get around the wage restrictions. The funds are in place from Moshiri but the wages issue is thorny. We want to be a top 4 team and to do so we will have to probably double our wage bill to be in line with them. We are prevented from doing so. A short term solution is selling Stones for 50 million as it will allow us to raise our wages by 40 million this season on top of the 7 million allowance.

It really is a means to an end. There is a sadness to it but trading at the right moment is an important part of any business. Even if he does go on to be as good as Bobby Moore and captain England is the trade the right one for us to do now, to allow us to add an additional 40 million to our wage bill (IE 6 players on circa 140k per week?). That is the dilemma we are left with.

I understand people saying just trade our squad players. I have no problem with that and I would happily move on half a dozen squad players (for different reasons, mainly to allow a pathway for younger players but also to get rid of the ethos of failure). However we do have to be realistic in that it won't be easy to shift these lads on and we may end up making a loss on them (which defeats the object). The days when we could offload of squad players to poorer premier league teams is diminishing. All teams have lots of money and most would not be massively enthused about players such as Oviedo, Kone, Cleverley & Lennon. The money all the clubs have have opened doors to the foreign market. More foreign managers have also aided this process.

I see people plucking numbers for players we can sell, but there needs to be somebody willing to pay that figure otherwise it is irrelevant. We know somebody is willing to pay around 50 million for Stones so it becomes a concrete decision not one based in hopes or ambition.

I also appreciate some may look at some transfers and say Stones is undervalued. I would urge caution on this. Particularly in this window it is going to be crazy. There will always be examples of players going which will make Stones look cheap. There will also be players going that will make him look overpriced. Everyone will use Troy Deeney as their example. That's fair enough. However you can also get international Centre backs for half of the 50 million of what we'd get for Stones. I do think we shouldn't lose site of the end goal with Stones though, which is allowing us to trade more effectively.
This Stones/Lukaku saga needs a conclusion and fast so we can move on with them or without them!!
 
guarantee to you mate the reason why the final fee for stones will be so high is because we are doing a liverpool and making city pay the fee at the same time. so the deal could be essentially worth 40 to us at the end of it all, but the extra is simply to pass over to barnsley as liverpool did with QPR.



Said this many time, do you balme him after working under Martinez? The same manager the entire team stopped playing for by the end?

Granted things are different now but if the choice is staying at the mid tbale everton trying to rebuild or go and work with guadiola at a team playing at the highest level? the fact he isn't a blue goes a long way, any young lad would jump at that. In fact any of our players would jump at that opportunity, ross included.

That is not accurate is it ?
Yes, things went south under RM, but that was as the season progressed, there was a lot of optimism at the start of the season and indeed our results back then were not bad at all , we did reach two semi finals as well of course.
But, John Stones wanted to leave last summer, when there was a lot of optimism around the club about what the future held.

Why , does it have to somebody else's fault. Why can it not be that Stones and his agent want to leave for the money and whatever opportunities they thing City will give to them.

I would like him to stay, but I think he isn't close to being the player that some people think he is. I think he needs to learn to be a defender first and footballer second and at the moment I think it is the other way around.
The potential is there to be a great player, but he is not there yet.
 

A very coherent, well-written summary.
Sad that we'll likely lose Stones, but if it is the means to an end, and the end we all aspire to of winning trophies, then that's the way it has to be.

That is it in a nutshell really mate. I used to hate it when we sold our bets players and defenders on the board would say "yea but United sold Ronaldo every sells players". The key difference was we sold players against our wishes often to cover for a lack of growth and ambition from extra football related activities. IE Kenwright, Elstone et al doing a terrible job growing the brand meant we were pressured into selling players.

This will be very much a footballing decision. Koeman looks very keen on buying experienced players and winners with experience. For all of Stones ability that is not what he is yet. If Stones goes I imagine we will see 2 experienced defenders coming in. That will suit me fine. I also really like Pennington, he will not be as good as Stones but is potentially a talented centre half. With Browning & Galloway we are not short of young defenders.
 
That is not accurate is it ?
Yes, things went south under RM, but that was as the season progressed, there was a lot of optimism at the start of the season and indeed our results back then were not bad at all , we did reach two semi finals as well of course.
But, John Stones wanted to leave last summer, when there was a lot of optimism around the club about what the future held.

Why , does it have to somebody else's fault. Why can it not be that Stones and his agent want to leave for the money and whatever opportunities they thing City will give to them.

I would like him to stay, but I think he isn't close to being the player that some people think he is. I think he needs to learn to be a defender first and footballer second and at the moment I think it is the other way around.
The potential is there to be a great player, but he is not there yet.

This is a good summary. Would Dortmund get 50 million for Hummels? Stones may be even better than Hummels in time but may also struggle to reach those heights.

Stones does certain parts of defending very very well. At times he makes the game look easier than any defender I've ever seen, and I can understand the Bobby Moore comparisons. He shows unique leadership skills of a lad his age. There are also days when he has looked lost.

In a perfect world I wouldn't sell Stones. However 50 million is very good money and we will be able to invest in the wages of 6 top players that we wouldn't have been able too as a result. That seems sensible to me.

Finally we have a very talented under 21's coach who seems particularly adept at coaching defenders. Pennington & Galloway will not be as good as Stones but I think both could become good players for Everton under his tutelage.
 
That is not accurate is it ?
Yes, things went south under RM, but that was as the season progressed, there was a lot of optimism at the start of the season and indeed our results back then were not bad at all , we did reach two semi finals as well of course.
But, John Stones wanted to leave last summer, when there was a lot of optimism around the club about what the future held.

Why , does it have to somebody else's fault. Why can it not be that Stones and his agent want to leave for the money and whatever opportunities they thing City will give to them.

I would like him to stay, but I think he isn't close to being the player that some people think he is. I think he needs to learn to be a defender first and footballer second and at the moment I think it is the other way around.
The potential is there to be a great player, but he is not there yet.


It didn't go throughout the season though mate did it? It started at the start of last season. the form over 2 years was so bad i am actually surprised we didn't get more transfer requests come in by the end of the season. Rememeber it ended up being something silly like 20 odd wins out of 70 odd games.

Either way from the perspective of a player, young and touted as potentially world class, staying at a club that is mid table with poor management is just wasting your career. So of course he wants to leave us before he ends up wasting half his career here with nothing to show for it. Same as why lukaku wanted to go, exactly the same reasons.

Now if things are going to be different then it is easier to reassess your future in terms of lukaku because one more year won't hurt. But Stones has a chance possibly of playing under someone regarded as one of the best managers in world football. why chance hoping things are different here when you can take the guaranteed success at city? Same as last season, staying at 11th everton or moving to the champions?

He owes us nothing so why resist it? He is paying us back more than we put in with his huge inflated fee so if he goes then fine by me, it is the job of the vlub to get the next stones coming through the academy and the manager gets us in a position where leaving is not a better option
 

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