John Stones

[bicycleheader]

he just said u dont sell your best player think he meant our best player. theres potential but hes not improving at all this year was a waste for stones we lost min 10 points because of stones fault

Im pretty sure he said playerS. couldn't be bothered checking.

I reckon they were all culpable for lost points. I think it's overly harsh to judge young players when they are trying to stay afloat in a team where the manager is struggling and the senior players are all regularly playing crap aswell.

Very few young players will come out on top in those circumstances.

I think we should sell the fans in the Park End to China and use the money to bump up his contract.

 

[kithnou]

C

Most deals we appear to be tied into already that seems to be the issue, plus for due to starting at such a disadvantage right now over the likes of spurs, never mind the rs who are a similar distance ahead of spurs than spurs are ahead of us, and then the top 4 who are a mile ahead of everyone else, we need a kick-start mate

We do some dubious commercial deals now - effectively moshiri funding us through back channels, then this time next year we will plateua again because we will not have the ability to grow due to having padded and inflated commercial deals already.

We sell and pull level with spurs on wages through Player trading, then we can still substantially grow the subsequent years through commercial sponsorship growth

I'd love there to be a magic wand we could wave and it'd all fall in place without any price to be paid to get where we want - but end of the day, it is one good (potentially brilliant defender) being put as more important than the owners plans to grow us at a speed he wants if we don't sell right now

May I ask you then, if there is even a small chance yesterday's twitter rumour is true and Stones told someone he is staying, then what do we do as we appear to be keeping Lukaku?

 

[caught]

The problem i this lies in the figures mate though

Mata and Witsel - wages have been estimated at 140k pw each (14.56m combined)
Dowell and Davies signing contracts and Stekelenberg joining the three prob come in about 50k pw (2.6m)
Extension for Lukaku 75k going to 140k pw (3.38m)
Extension for Barkley 60k going to 110k pw (2.6m)
and if he sin't sold we'd need to extend Stones as well or risk losing him for nothing 30k going to 110k pw (4.68m)

27.82m increase in the wage bill from just those activities alone, going off your suggestions (7.5m available from the currently releasd players +7m annual allowed increase to wages by prem rules + 7m freed up from the sale of Cleverley (if we managed to get a buyer for that price) would see us allowed by the rules to increase it by 21m

we'd be in breach of the wages limitation rules by 6.82m already at that juncture...

Even assuming none of the academy lads receive contracts (highly unlikely to be the case) and that no other existing players will be pushing for improved contracts (Mori, Deulofeu, Coleman etc) - also highly unlikely we would need to find 6.82m reduction in wages further than what we already had managed at that point, and thats without even factoring in that at that point we would still need to bring in a starting keeper and a second striker at a bare minimum - for purpose of the example say Begovic arrives (currently on 80k pw at Chelsea and say Pelle - let's say 70k pw) thatd be another 7.8m wages on top of the 6.8m we are already over - meaning we'd now have to reduce the wage bill by another 14.8m in total or roughly 285k pw we'd need to shed in wages from the already trimmed down squad...


It just isn't a feasible thing for us to do mate, honestly we will need to sell Stones, the fact we are trying to get both Witsel and Mata in has already shown that we are selling him IMO.

Maybe you're right, but all your figures are both estimates and, in my opinion, a little high. I could pull some figures out of my backside to suggest you're over-egging by a couple of million but it would be pure guesswork.

I stand by what I said originally: while it will be tight, I think we can significantly improve the squad (Witsel, Mata, Keeper, Striker) without selling Stones (possibly selling 1-2 first team players). The club employs enough people to get around the Fair Play issue if necessary. If our aim is to make dramatic changes and pay massive salaries then yes, Stones or Lukaku are the only two feasible assets that could generate enough money.

Obviously if Stones is determined to leave - certainly a possibility - our decision might be made easier.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[blueblue]

It didn't go throughout the season though mate did it? It started at the start of last season. the form over 2 years was so bad i am actually surprised we didn't get more transfer requests come in by the end of the season. Rememeber it ended up being something silly like 20 odd wins out of 70 odd games.

Either way from the perspective of a player, young and touted as potentially world class, staying at a club that is mid table with poor management is just wasting your career. So of course he wants to leave us before he ends up wasting half his career here with nothing to show for it. Same as why lukaku wanted to go, exactly the same reasons.

Now if things are going to be different then it is easier to reassess your future in terms of lukaku because one more year won't hurt. But Stones has a chance possibly of playing under someone regarded as one of the best managers in world football. why chance hoping things are different here when you can take the guaranteed success at city? Same as last season, staying at 11th everton or moving to the champions?

He owes us nothing so why resist it? He is paying us back more than we put in with his huge inflated fee so if he goes then fine by me, it is the job of the vlub to get the next stones coming through the academy and the manager gets us in a position where leaving is not a better option

It is that I don't accept the theories that Everton are a midtable club and the player is too good for us and secondly that John Stones somehow was held back or disimproved as a player under RM.

RM was the manager who made John Stones, he took him from being an Everton reserve , put him in the first team and kept him there even when he was making mistakes and costing us goals and points.
The only manager John Stones while playing in the Everton first team was RM and if a player has gone from a 2m player to a 50m player in three seasons then somebody somewhere has done something right and I don't mean John Stones alone.

Yes, Everton did have a poor season , but John Stones was as poor as any other player last season and his insistence on not defending first cost us goals and points and league places. The fact that after having the season he had , that he rightly could not get into a poor England team(because they could not trust his defending) and that a club is now willing to pay 50m for him says far more about the lunacy of football than it does about the player himself.

Personally , I think there will always be the streak of madness in him, the mistake that costs the vital goal and he is now going to play with the big boys and those mistakes will be highlighted.

 

[Mountfield1985]

If they up the bid and sign Bonucci you can bet they wont be signing Stones.

Bonucci, Kompany ,Ottamendi ,Mangala & Di Michellis cant see Pep wanting any more .

Demichelis has been released.
Kompany can't play 2 games in a row, and Otteamendi/Mangala are not good enough.

They'll be signing 2 centre backs I think.

 

[caught]

Maybe you're right, but all your figures are both estimates and, in my opinion, a little high. I could pull some figures out of my backside to suggest you're over-egging by a couple of million but it would be pure guesswork.

I stand by what I said originally: while it will be tight, I think we can significantly improve the squad (Witsel, Mata, Keeper, Striker) without selling Stones (possibly selling 1-2 first team players). The club employs enough people to get around the Fair Play issue if necessary. If our aim is to make dramatic changes and pay massive salaries then yes, Stones or Lukaku are the only two feasible assets that could generate enough money.

Obviously if Stones is determined to leave - certainly a possibility - our decision might be made easier.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

The bolded bit meant less offensively than it might read... @bluestevon

 

[bluestevon]

C

May I ask you then, if there is even a small chance yesterday's twitter rumour is true and Stones told someone he is staying, then what do we do as we appear to be keeping Lukaku?

There is no chance that the rumour is true mate

Hypothetically though, we would be royally screwed and have to pull out of any deals of the magnitude we are currently doing (no way we could afford two incomings on 140k for example)

The implications for running afoul of these regulations are too severe to leave any chance of not being able to comply with them mate, if we sign these two lads then within days Stones will follow the other way out the door

 

[kithnou]

There is no chance that the rumour is true mate

Hypothetically though, we would be royally screwed and have to pull out of any deals of the magnitude we are currently doing (no way we could afford two incomings on 140k for example)

The implications for running afoul of these regulations are too severe to leave any chance of not being able to comply with them mate, if we sign these two lads then within days Stones will follow the other way out the door

interesting times ahead

 

[blulouie]

Demichelis has been released.
Kompany can't play 2 games in a row, and Otteamendi/Mangala are not good enough.

They'll be signing 2 centre backs I think.

Deneyar back from loan to Galatasaray too , he'd be doing some serious benchwarming there.

 

[bluestevon]

Maybe you're right, but all your figures are both estimates and, in my opinion, a little high. I could pull some figures out of my backside to suggest you're over-egging by a couple of million but it would be pure guesswork.

I stand by what I said originally: while it will be tight, I think we can significantly improve the squad (Witsel, Mata, Keeper, Striker) without selling Stones (possibly selling 1-2 first team players). The club employs enough people to get around the Fair Play issue if necessary. If our aim is to make dramatic changes and pay massive salaries then yes, Stones or Lukaku are the only two feasible assets that could generate enough money.

Obviously if Stones is determined to leave - certainly a possibility - our decision might be made easier.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Thing is though mate to keep Stones/Lukaku we will have to pay a massive salary, so find ourselves in a catch 22 situation, the wage structure on the club is going to shot up massively on that alone (ie top earners etc)

The figures are just rough estimates mate, could be a little high, or in cases a little lower, no one knows for sure, but close enough for arguments sake really, and i did give you the sale of Cleverley for 5m remember

I actually before i fully understood the rules on STCC argued a very similar thought on how we could keep Stones etc whilst complying and grwoing the wages to the required amount, but in the end realised i was pissing against the wind trying to make the figures work

and it would require an insane amount of wheeling and dealing in the transfer market to offload players and wages and incredible luck and stupidity on the part of other clubs - and even then it would see us fall shrt by around 15-20m on what we'd need to raise

Just hopefully it's done soon now and not dragged out

 

[bicycleheader]

, Everton did have a poor season , but John Stones was as poor as any other player last season and his insistence on not defending first cost us goals and points and league places. The fact that after having the season he had , that he rightly could not get into a poor England team(because they could not trust his defending) and that a club is now willing to pay 50m for him says far more about the lunacy of football than it does about the player himself.

Personally , I think there will always be the streak of madness in him, the mistake that costs the vital goal and he is now going to play with the big boys and those mistakes will be highlighted.

On the contrary to what you say here, although football is crazy, I don't think many young defenders would have that poor a season and still allegedly have the best, or close to the best manager in football willing to pay huge money for him.

For me its simple. he is a very special talent and is still rated as such at the top level and I hope he stays for good

 

[Ashtonian]

It is that I don't accept the theories that Everton are a midtable club and the player is too good for us and secondly that John Stones somehow was held back or disimproved as a player under RM.

RM was the manager who made John Stones, he took him from being an Everton reserve , put him in the first team and kept him there even when he was making mistakes and costing us goals and points.
The only manager John Stones while playing in the Everton first team was RM and if a player has gone from a 2m player to a 50m player in three seasons then somebody somewhere has done something right and I don't mean John Stones alone.

Yes, Everton did have a poor season , but John Stones was as poor as any other player last season and his insistence on not defending first cost us goals and points and league places. The fact that after having the season he had , that he rightly could not get into a poor England team(because they could not trust his defending) and that a club is now willing to pay 50m for him says far more about the lunacy of football than it does about the player himself.

Personally , I think there will always be the streak of madness in him, the mistake that costs the vital goal and he is now going to play with the big boys and those mistakes will be highlighted.

Thing is mate, yes martinez did play him but he played him when he was out of form also. This then in turn meant he struggled to break out of that form so habits began to form. With no-one to tell him otherwise he begin doing very risky defending without any reprecussions, costing us games at the same time. Then when he came back he was played out of position and in formations that none of the defence knew how to pla which again in turn allowed him to keep going.

the reason why he has gone from 3 million to 50 is not down to the manager in any way. it is down to john stones. He is young, english and talented, therefore he is worth a premium in this country. Look at callum chambers at arsenal for example, 16 million for a bit part defender, luke shaw with one full season more or less went for 30, sterling despite being average went for 49 million. That is where the price has come from, believe me martinez may have played him but was the first and biggest reason why another year would have had his value drop significantly. Good thing for us we didn't let him do that.

Personally i believe that streak of madness as you say is not down to his style but him being young and inexperienced. A better manager would have called him on it, i don't believe martinez did, and allowed him to keep making risky decisions. Koeman for example would have got that out of him at the first sign of it on the training ground and taught him the basics. wherever he is playing next season will do that also , so within 2 years he will be probably one of the top english defenders in the game.

 

[caught]

Thing is though mate to keep Stones/Lukaku we will have to pay a massive salary, so find ourselves in a catch 22 situation, the wage structure on the club is going to shot up massively on that alone (ie top earners etc)

The figures are just rough estimates mate, could be a little high, or in cases a little lower, no one knows for sure, but close enough for arguments sake really, and i did give you the sale of Cleverley for 5m remember

I actually before i fully understood the rules on STCC argued a very similar thought on how we could keep Stones etc whilst complying and grwoing the wages to the required amount, but in the end realised i was pissing against the wind trying to make the figures work

and it would require an insane amount of wheeling and dealing in the transfer market to offload players and wages and incredible luck and stupidity on the part of other clubs - and even then it would see us fall shrt by around 15-20m on what we'd need to raise

Just hopefully it's done soon now and not dragged out

 

[catcherintherye]

Good summary. I think the decision on Stones depends entirely on how radical a transfer window we aim to have. We can't know right now what Koeman and Moshiri intend - whether we recruit six top level players like you hypothesise or not - and it should only be when Koeman has fully assessed the squad that a decision is made re. Stones.

On top of the £7m allowance we have to remember that Osman, Pienaar, Howard and Hibbert have been released. A conservative estimate would have their collective salaries at around £7.5m (probably a bit more). The potential sales of 1-2 other players (a £5m sale of Cleverley, for example, isn't beyond imagination and would free up another £7m for wage increases) would be enough to make 3-4 top (~£100-140k per week) acquisitions.

It would be tight, but there's certainly a way of improving the squad significantly without selling Stones or Lukaku. Selling Stones only makes sense if, on top of Mata and Witsel, we sign another three or four players of comparable quality. It's debatable whether or not we require such a huge overhaul.

I used that as a hypothetical example. There are contract rises to come to players too to factor in. What we do know is that Stones going will give us significant wriggle room.

What I think we are seeing from Koeman is he is going to sign proven players in their prime years. It plays into the idea that he is really going for it next season. We won't have seen anything like it since at least Joe Royle, when he went and bought Kanchelskis and Speed etc.

Fortunately the one parting gift of Roberto is we do have a number of talented younger players. Barkley, Lukaku, Deulofeu, Besic, Galloway and thanks to Unsworth, Davies, Walsh, Ledson, Kenny, Pennington. We don't really need to add many more, we need some winners.

There is a final point in all of this Stones stuff which won't be popular. If you are seen to hold onto your players forever, what it means is young players may think twice about joining you. That's ok for now, but say we wanted to make an outlandish bid for Hallovic from Barcelona or Jese from Real Madrid. Thinking hey get stuck at Everton forever won't help our cause.
Stones has acted largely very well. Certainly compared to Lukaku. I think by keeping Lukaku and selling Stones we are sending a clear message to the squad. Be patient, act decently, respect the club and you are more likely to get what you want. Try to force the issue and we will drag our heels.

 

[blueblue]

Thing is mate, yes martinez did play him but he played him when he was out of form also. This then in turn meant he struggled to break out of that form so habits began to form. With no-one to tell him otherwise he begin doing very risky defending without any reprecussions, costing us games at the same time. Then when he came back he was played out of position and in formations that none of the defence knew how to pla which again in turn allowed him to keep going.

the reason why he has gone from 3 million to 50 is not down to the manager in any way. it is down to john stones. He is young, english and talented, therefore he is worth a premium in this country. Look at callum chambers at arsenal for example, 16 million for a bit part defender, luke shaw with one full season more or less went for 30, sterling despite being average went for 49 million. That is where the price has come from, believe me martinez may have played him but was the first and biggest reason why another year would have had his value drop significantly. Good thing for us we didn't let him do that.

Personally i believe that streak of madness as you say is not down to his style but him being young and inexperienced. A better manager would have called him on it, i don't believe martinez did, and allowed him to keep making risky decisions. Koeman for example would have got that out of him at the first sign of it on the training ground and taught him the basics. wherever he is playing next season will do that also , so within 2 years he will be probably one of the top english defenders in the game.

Ash.
I actually do agree with a lot of what you say, but , I am not convinced that he is as good or going to be as good as some think.
I absolutely agree with you about the premium on English players and Brexit will further increase that premium, but I wonder how highly regarded
he would be if he wasn't English as it seems to put a premium on a players ability as well as his worth.

But, I think it is a debate that only time will answer.