2024/25 Kevin Thelwell

[jceverton]

DoF buys everyone; if he didn’t agree he knows where the door is

That's clearly not what's been going on, and it's happened with all of the DOF's we've had. In this situation its idiotic to blame the DOF for things they simply haven't done. Regarding whether they should re-sign over the matter, I've got some sympathy with that view, but Brands effectively did this and nothing changed in the way the club was run.

 

[bluestevon]

I need to go back into the vaults from end of July. I was very vocal about spending the last of our money on O'Brien, given pelters because "we needed a centre half", and now look, it's come back round to that I was correct with my whinging.

Thing is mate, I'd say the start of this season shows just how much we did need a CB, the fact Dyche is a complete imbecile who'd rather play a known liability (but who he personally likes) over a poster whose last season in France was exceptional - not sure you can blame Thelwell on that.

Yes we had e other positions that badly needed addressing, but having Keane as a starting CB for a season would sure fire relegated us more than having Young, Coleman etc playing fullback will (especially when we do have options at right back especially - again Dyche won't use them though)

 

[Saint Domingo]

Thelwell should leave if one thing happens. The next choice of manager has to be either directly his or one he is full agreement with if it's the owners choice.

I disagree on one part, I think Thelwell is actually a very good DoF mate. Why,, just by analysing the resources he has and the massive obstacles he had to overcome. I'll list what I think he's done very well.

First thing he did was get rid of Unsworth and the group of former players milking a living in the academy setup. Since then we've seen progress being made in the types of young lads we are bringing in and former decisions made on if they'll cut the mustard or not (few are doing the Pennington thing of being a academy player in their mid 20s still nowadays).

Lowered the wave bill hugely, a lot of that by the hard choice of biting the bullet and letting contracts expire, also been decent at getting them loaned out to somewhat mitigate the losses and sold ones whose wages weren't effectively blocking any sale.

Recruited in general younger players with potential to improve or ones who'd had a dip season. Avoided any long term contracts on older players, and spent almost nothing on players with no resale value due to their age.

Negatives
So e of his signings or 'renewed contracts' have been on the surface very debatable.
I'll list the 5 I class as dodgy and the possible reason why the surface view isn't the full picture.
Beto - DCL was injured we had no other CF going into the season, we had zero money whatsoever, Udinese where the only team willing to sanction a sake of a 'proven' scorer to us, in hindsight DCL stayed fit and Beto looked unnecessary, but if DCL had broken down we'd have needed Beto massively.
Overall though not a good buy - very much a desperation needs must one.

Maupay - just horrible, no arguing. Supposedly was imposed on him from Moshiri, guess the best we can say is he shipped him out on loan and then sold him again mitigating the costs a lot, bad buy, good recouping of the expenses.

Doucoure contracts extension, yeah don't like it, obviously a case of not wanting what was a key player to leave the team when we couldn't replace him, stands out as the one bloated contract we didn't let expire - thankfully he's gone next summer, can see why he was extended though as ges been a regular starter under everyone bar Frank.

Coleman extension - don't like, only excuse is he's an extra body in the position. Overall this seasons was a mistake to give him an extension.

Young - free and then extended.
As a one-year stop gap for a new manager getting in someone he knew and wanted, not gonna moan too much, but having had him a season and seeing how bad he'd faded too, giving him another season was a terrible choice.

Not fixing certain obvious positional needs, pacey winger, right back, left back

Winger - tried his hardest, probably the position we've been closest to getting in over the last two seasons, problem is the way we have to finance desks leaves us open to getting gazzunped, mongo, Prighones being two obvious cases, Gnoto fell down due to financing also.
Right back - obvious to me we've kicked the can down the road repeatedly, I'm guessing we've tried to make stop gaps work hoping Patterson finally gets and stays healthy and/or Dixon develops to take that roll. Problem being both senior right backs have hit the wall and are not fit to task. Funny thing though a new manager could come in play Dixon, get Patterson back in the squad and we could end up wondering why it was regarded as such an issue (maybe the solution is already there)

Left back - simply haven't got the money to buy a backup there - getting highlighted more as Myko looks worryingly like he's starting to physically break down.

The DOF isn’t responsible for player fitness. Everton have been hamstrung for as long as I can remember by player fitness. The first season under Martinez being one of the few I can remember when we haven’t had key players missing consistently.

Patterson Garner and DCL have just been missing far too much recently and people keep complaining about striker and right back but the club has senior players there that it can’t just let go for nothing. Whilst they sit on the treatment table though we are forced into stop gaps.

The start of the season most teams have most of their players fit but yet again Branthwaite misses the start, yet again Garner wasn’t ready, yet again Patterson is injured, McNeil and DCL missed the start of last season when we had no one to finish the chances. Then because they’ve missed pre-season they undoubtedly break down some other time later in the season.

The club invested a lot of money in players like Patterson Mykolenko Garner McNeil as the core of the team. They need to stay fit more often (McNeil hasn’t been too bad)

 

[Simon Buttle]

Thing is mate, I'd say the start of this season shows just how much we did need a CB, the fact Dyche is a complete imbecile who'd rather play a known liability (but who he personally likes) over a poster whose last season in France was exceptional - not sure you can blame Thelwell on that.

Yes we had e other positions that badly needed addressing, but having Keane as a starting CB for a season would sure fire relegated us more than having Young, Coleman etc playing fullback will (especially when we do have options at right back especially - again Dyche won't use them though)

When Branthwaite is fit he will always play ahead of Obrien. We should have loaned a CB and used any funds on more forward minded signings imo.

 

[bluestevon]

What I can't square off with the 'it's not Thelwells fault, Dyche kept nixing all his suggestions' argument is how Dyche never stopped the O'brien transfer. Dyche must've known he would've rolled with Keane either way. His preseason showed as much.

Or is it a 'gift' from Textor? Or was the plan to be Obrien and he's come in and is utter tosh

Or by far the most likely scenario.

Dyche actually believes Keane is a good player and rates him.

Remember we started last season with Keane rated by Dyche as better than Branthwaite, it's why the first three games saw Keane playing and Branthwaite sitting on the bench, exactly as we are seeing this season with O'Brien.

Funny though, wonder how many of the people saying 'O'Brien must be crap if Keane plays ahead of him' were saying the exact same thing about Jarrod last season.

Just a few other things in line with that.

Dyche thinks Young is better than Dixon or Patterson.
He thinks Doucoure is better than Ndiaye.
He thinks our best number 10 is Dwight McNeil.
He thinks McNeil is an undroppable plsyer.
He thinks players being exhausted is no excuse to struggle at the end of a game.
He thinks a managers job is to smell the atmosphere - but do nothing about what you 'sense'
He thinks subs are a waste of time.
He thinks the tactics you start the game with should be the tactics you play the full 90.
He thinks premier league experience is the key factor over experience elsewhere or natural talent and ability.

To summarise, anyone using Dyche thinks this so must mean that, are saying they agree with the above list he yanks too, otherwise it's cherry picking one thing to further an agenda

 

[DualityNSNO]

Thelwell should leave if one thing happens. The next choice of manager has to be either directly his or one he is full agreement with if it's the owners choice.

I disagree on one part, I think Thelwell is actually a very good DoF mate. Why,, just by analysing the resources he has and the massive obstacles he had to overcome. I'll list what I think he's done very well.

I agree withe first point mate.

The second - I'm indifferent personally, he's not poor or anything like that in my opinion, he's just okay... so far. Maybe with time/resources/etc. he'll do better, so far there's room for improvement but I believe he can do it, if given the platform to work properly. I agree with the players/points you've raised, RB especially - there are players there but Dyche doesn't play them or has an active fight with them for some bizarre reason.

I do believe some of the renewals were at the manager's insistence - Young, Doucoure are "vital parts" as far as Dyche is concerned, as garbage as they are, so we've been absolutely had renewing their contracts. Sort of the same for Coleman sadly.

As you say - new manager should be in line with how he wants to work as well, it should be a mutual work experience/environment after all and he should be able to have the space and means to work. This has only half happened since he's arrived - BK, Moshiri, the managers seem to bring in or insist on some players or contracts and it seems to get granted. We obviously don't know exactly how that works but I will absolutely not be surprised if Thelwell gets jumped over by Dyche requesting it straight to the "bosses" somehow.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Or by far the most likely scenario.

Dyche actually believes Keane is a good player and rates him.

Remember we started last season with Keane rated by Dyche as better than Branthwaite, it's why the first three games saw Keane playing and Branthwaite sitting on the bench, exactly as we are seeing this season with O'Brien.

Funny though, wonder how many of the people saying 'O'Brien must be crap if Keane plays ahead of him' were saying the exact same thing about Jarrod last season.

Just a few other things in line with that.

Dyche thinks Young is better than Dixon or Patterson.
He thinks Doucoure is better than Ndiaye.
He thinks our best number 10 is Dwight McNeil.
He thinks McNeil is an undroppable plsyer.
He thinks players being exhausted is no excuse to struggle at the end of a game.
He thinks a managers job is to smell the atmosphere - but do nothing about what you 'sense'
He thinks subs are a waste of time.
He thinks the tactics you start the game with should be the tactics you play the full 90.
He thinks premier league experience is the key factor over experience elsewhere or natural talent and ability.

To summarise, anyone using Dyche thinks this so must mean that, are saying they agree with the above list he yanks too, otherwise it's cherry picking one thing to further an agenda

You missed "he watches them in training so he knows best" to be honest

 

[bluestevon]

The DOF isn’t responsible for player fitness. Everton have been hamstrung for as long as I can remember by player fitness. The first season under Martinez being one of the few I can remember when we haven’t had key players missing consistently.

Patterson Garner and DCL have just been missing far too much recently and people keep complaining about striker and right back but the club has senior players there that it can’t just let go for nothing. Whilst they sit on the treatment table though we are forced into stop gaps.

The start of the season most teams have most of their players fit but yet again Branthwaite misses the start, yet again Garner wasn’t ready, yet again Patterson is injured, McNeil and DCL missed the start of last season when we had no one to finish the chances. Then because they’ve missed pre-season they undoubtedly break down some other time later in the season.

The club invested a lot of money in players like Patterson Mykolenko Garner McNeil as the core of the team. They need to stay fit more often (McNeil hasn’t been too bad)

Great points mate

Yup, I also wonder at certain positions and wonder, with a different coach, a younger, progressive one, would certain issues actually seem way less than they do now.

Would say a Glasner, Potter etc have been playing Dixon for example and when Patterson returns we'd have two young right backs competing to play.

Bad managers make bad personnel choices, which often make issues look bigger than they in fact are.

Same as we start the season terribly, lots of injuries and players looking rusty as f.

Ok, maybe that's due to a completely wrong focus in pre season over 'fitness' over playing semi competitive games against good opposition.

Dyche will moan about injuries and about new dog ING not being ready yet, ok, why is that, because they didn't get enough minutes against good opponents in pre season maybe? Or they broke down by doing intensive fitness work when straight back off holidays.

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

Or by far the most likely scenario.

Dyche actually believes Keane is a good player and rates him.

Remember we started last season with Keane rated by Dyche as better than Branthwaite, it's why the first three games saw Keane playing and Branthwaite sitting on the bench, exactly as we are seeing this season with O'Brien.

Funny though, wonder how many of the people saying 'O'Brien must be crap if Keane plays ahead of him' were saying the exact same thing about Jarrod last season.

Just a few other things in line with that.

Dyche thinks Young is better than Dixon or Patterson.
He thinks Doucoure is better than Ndiaye.
He thinks our best number 10 is Dwight McNeil.
He thinks McNeil is an undroppable plsyer.
He thinks players being exhausted is no excuse to struggle at the end of a game.
He thinks a managers job is to smell the atmosphere - but do nothing about what you 'sense'
He thinks subs are a waste of time.
He thinks the tactics you start the game with should be the tactics you play the full 90.
He thinks premier league experience is the key factor over experience elsewhere or natural talent and ability.

To summarise, anyone using Dyche thinks this so must mean that, are saying they agree with the above list he yanks too, otherwise it's cherry picking one thing to further an agenda

You've misunderstood my point.

 

[bluestevon]

When Branthwaite is fit he will always play ahead of Obrien. We should have loaned a CB and used any funds on more forward minded signings imo.

Ok we spent 17 on O'Brien.

So let's assume we are talking forward minded signings but rather one signing.

Just looking around the league atm and at certain players we did try for

Gnoto - they wanted 25m for, Minteh went for 40m, Prighones went to Villa for around 17-18m (reported as less due to Villa having a percentage sell on which worked on buying him back).

So using that list the other affordable one would have been Prighones who I don't think villa have played even yet (may be wrong on that).

But we did try, and we tried prior to spending on O'Brien.

So seems to me anyways we had that position as a higher priority than CB.

Thing is though with any list I'm guessing you'll have the players you want in the key positions ranked in order of how much you want them.

Guessing O'Briens came below that lot but above maybe some other wingers who we were more unsure on. So instead of getting a make do type of winger when we failed to get the priority targets we went and got the priority CB on our list.

I'd say that's good strategy. And looking at Beto and Maupay you see what can happen when you just keep dropping down the list for a position and get the dregs.

Now also factor in - just like Dyche rates Keane ahead of O'Brien, he may also rate Harrison, Doucoure or McNeil ahead of whoever we bring in.

Evidence is there he already does this with first Doucoure playing ahead of Ndiaye then when he makes that change he moves McNeil into the more key position instead of trusting Ndiaye there. Lindstrom another attacking player is gonna get the Danjuma treatment. And when we had Danjuma Dyche didn't 'fancy' him so he went pretty much hardly used all season long - same with Chermiti as well.

The problem isn't with Thelwell - it's with Dyche.

 

[bluestevon]

You've misunderstood my point.

Yeah re read mate.

I'll take another stab at it then.

Thelwell can't recruit according to just what Dyche wants, otherwise he's not a DoF it's Dyche acting as it.

Thelwells job is to bring in the best players he can to suit the long term recruitment strategy and that the current manager SHOULD utilise.

He can ensure the manger has the players he needs but he can't make him choose to play them

 

[Stoffee]

Yeah re read mate.

I'll take another stab at it then.

Thelwell can't recruit according to just what Dyche wants, otherwise he's not a DoF it's Dyche acting as it.

Thelwells job is to bring in the best players he can to suit the long term recruitment strategy and that the current manager SHOULD utilise.

He can ensure the manger has the players he needs but he can't make him choose to play them

Someone that understands how the model is supposed to work, REJOICE!

 

[bluestevon]

You've misunderstood my point.

Just to add, if Thelwell came to Dyche with various options on positions we all know say if these are examples which he'd go for.

Tim or Gueye/Philips
McNeil or Ndiaye
Doucoure or Lindstrom
Harrison or Piennar (when he first arrived)
Keane or O'Brien
I'll add one more I think given the choice Dyche would rather have Tarkowski fit than Branthwaite given the option.
Mykolenko or a young Baines.
DCL or a 20yo Lukaku.
Young or a 22yo Coleman.

It's scary but I honestly think he'd go for the first option in every case.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Great points mate

Yup, I also wonder at certain positions and wonder, with a different coach, a younger, progressive one, would certain issues actually seem way less than they do now.

Would say a Glasner, Potter etc have been playing Dixon for example and when Patterson returns we'd have two young right backs competing to play.

Bad managers make bad personnel choices, which often make issues look bigger than they in fact are.

Same as we start the season terribly, lots of injuries and players looking rusty as f.

Ok, maybe that's due to a completely wrong focus in pre season over 'fitness' over playing semi competitive games against good opposition.

Dyche will moan about injuries and about new dog ING not being ready yet, ok, why is that, because they didn't get enough minutes against good opponents in pre season maybe? Or they broke down by doing intensive fitness work when straight back off holidays.

Don’t know what it is but it’s happened far too often under a succession of managers

How many broken metatarsals and ACLs did we we have under Moyes to our key players? Cahill Arteta Jagielka Yakubu, then Mirallas with his phantom hamstring ruining later seasons.

Martinez on cusp of top 4 and Lacina Traore arrives and plays one game for us before injury. Kone ACL that season. Besic ACL. Oviedo leg break. Coleman ankle break. Funes Mori significant injury.

Koeman: Bolasie ACL, Keane severed foot (prob a blessing)

Allardyce: Mangala did his ACL in one of the first games we had.

Silva: Tosun ACL, Gbamin everything, Mina everything, Delph knee, Gomes ankle break.

Ancelotti: James injured, Docuoure injured, Allan injured

Benitez: DCL injured, Doucoure injured

Lampard: DCL injured, Godfrey injured, Mina injured, Dele injured, VdB injured, Patterson injured

It’s just never ending. I thought it had improved somewhat under Dyche last season. We’d kept the spine of the team fit for most of the season but here we are back again at 3/4 of the first choice back 4 unavailable.

No DOF is ever going to succeed at Everton if the best players cannot stay fit continuously. Every club has injuries but I’ve not seen any other club get them with the regularity and severity we do. Even back to the days of Hibbert getting that tropical virus, Wright failing out his loft and hitting the no warning up sign on a pitch, and Vaughan and Keane nearly losing limbs from cuts that went septic, playing in boots multiple sizes too big. You just don’t hear about that sort of stuff at other top flight clubs.

 

[Nymzee]

Thing is mate, I'd say the start of this season shows just how much we did need a CB, the fact Dyche is a complete imbecile who'd rather play a known liability (but who he personally likes) over a poster whose last season in France was exceptional - not sure you can blame Thelwell on that.

Yes we had e other positions that badly needed addressing, but having Keane as a starting CB for a season would sure fire relegated us more than having Young, Coleman etc playing fullback will (especially when we do have options at right back especially - again Dyche won't use them though)

Again: did we need to spend the entire rest of the budget to improve on Keane.