Lukaku. Yes or no

[TheBigIguana]

Nope.

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etc. etc. etc.

So the thing for me is Everton playing against Manchester City isn't a big game or a high pressure game. It's just a game we should lose.

 

[TheBigIguana]

My god, I don't actually care about Lukaku, if he scores, good for him and Chelsea, if he doesn't then meh.

You have taken player fanboy to a new level with this one though, it is quite amusing to watch you have meltdowns every time he scores because 'Everybody is saying mean things about him and I just can't take it anymore, Mummy why are they saying mean things about him'

I don't like watching people bend over backwards so far that they're looking up their own backside to discredit players. Seeing as this is a forum for football discussion I find it appropriate to say something when they do.

 

[wandyr79]

I don't like watching people bend over backwards so far that they're looking up their own backside to discredit players. Seeing as this is a forum for football discussion I find it appropriate to say something when they do.

Are you not doing the same but the opposite view. I mean you purposefully came into the thread after he scored a goal in a CL group game to laud it over everybody who is disagreeing with you.

That, for me, is bending over backwards so far you are looking up Lukaku's backside to credit the player. You were the first to post after he scored apart from a jokey emoji, that is you coming in before anybody said anything. There is an adult like rating of a player and then there is a child like obsession, you are definitely bordering on the latter, if not the full blown all the way there. Honest question, why exactly is that?

People won't like him because of how he acted at Everton, I am not a fan to be honest but there is no doubt he has his strengths and weaknesses, one (as proven by some of the goal stats) is his contribution against the top level teams.

 

[EverTheOptimist]

He looks an absolute monster of a player now, speed ,power, first touch has improved a lot as well, i get George Weah AC Milan vibes about him, a battering ram #9.

Going to Italy was the best thing for him, Conte is really big into nutrition and he went to Inter at the right optimum time, seemed to revel in being the top man there as well.

He's winning the golden boot, i reckon he'll get 30 PL goals easily.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Are you not doing the same but the opposite view. I mean you purposefully came into the thread after he scored a goal in a CL group game to laud it over everybody who is disagreeing with you.

That, for me, is bending over backwards so far you are looking up Lukaku's backside to credit the player. You were the first to post after he scored apart from a jokey emoji, that is you coming in before anybody said anything. There is an adult like rating of a player and then there is a child like obsession, you are definitely bordering on the latter, if not the full blown all the way there. Honest question, why exactly is that?

People won't like him because of how he acted at Everton, I am not a fan to be honest but there is no doubt he has his strengths and weaknesses, one (as proven by some of the goal stats) is his contribution against the top level teams.

No I'm not bending over backwards to make a story out of "I think the striker who scores a lot of goals is a good player." It's literally the most regular take you can have.

 

[TheBigIguana]

He looks an absolute monster of a player now, speed ,power, first touch has improved a lot as well, i get George Weah AC Milan vibes about him, a battering ram #9.

Going to Italy was the best thing for him, Conte is really big into nutrition and he went to Inter at the right optimum time, seemed to revel in being the top man there as well.

He's winning the golden boot, i reckon he'll get 30 PL goals easily.

I worry about how Chelsea play. I think they'll have a run of 1-0s at some point so getting to 30 is going to be a big ask. Not that he won't have a boatload still.

 

[wandyr79]

No I'm not bending over backwards to make a story out of "I think the striker who scores a lot of goals is a good player." It's literally the most regular take you can have.

I agree but like everything it has context. Would you recognise Ali Daei as one of the greatest International Centre Forwards the game has ever produced, only recently has his goals record been beaten, no you wouldn't because there is context to be argued.

This is what is being debated, it is not fiction to look at some of the bigger games that Lukaku has played and to not see the goals ratio that he has against lesser teams in lesser games.

If we get to ability, he has power, pace and is an amazing finisher. Has he refined the technical aspect outside of finishing, has he refined the tactical side that is another question?

My opinion would be that he hasn't enough to be considered up there with the better forwards currently and most in recent memory.

If we just look at stats then the debating goes out of the window. For example, how good a player was Pienaar. Now I don't know the official stats but it was a thing to say he assisted the assister. So, if we just looked at assists it may turn out that he could be simply seen as not a good player or an effective player as this was a big part of his role in the team, however, when you look at the context of what he did do and what he was good at he becomes a much better player.

All I see from you, about Lukaku, is that he scores goals. This is your one and only defence of the critique that he faces but there has been more evidence that if we look at the context of those goals that argument becomes diminished to a certain degree.

Football is more than about simple stats, a batting average or yards gained. It is much more nuanced than that.

 

[TheBigIguana]

I agree but like everything it has context. Would you recognise Ali Daei as one of the greatest International Centre Forwards the game has ever produced, only recently has his goals record been beaten, no you wouldn't because there is context to be argued.

This is what is being debated, it is not fiction to look at some of the bigger games that Lukaku has played and to not see the goals ratio that he has against lesser teams in lesser games.

If we get to ability, he has power, pace and is an amazing finisher. Has he refined the technical aspect outside of finishing, has he refined the tactical side that is another question?

My opinion would be that he hasn't enough to be considered up there with the better forwards currently and most in recent memory.

If we just look at stats then the debating goes out of the window. For example, how good a player was Pienaar. Now I don't know the official stats but it was a thing to say he assisted the assister. So, if we just looked at assists it may turn out that he could be simply seen as not a good player or an effective player as this was a big part of his role in the team, however, when you look at the context of what he did do and what he was good at he becomes a much better player.

All I see from you, about Lukaku, is that he scores goals. This is your one and only defence of the critique that he faces but there has been more evidence that if we look at the context of those goals that argument becomes diminished to a certain degree.

Football is more than about simple stats, a batting average or yards gained. It is much more nuanced than that.

There are plenty of other stats to use, I find on this forum almost everyone is resistant to going that route.

 

[wandyr79]

There are plenty of other stats to use, I find on this forum almost everyone is resistant to going that route.

Stats don't always tell the whole story but a lot of stats together can certainly point an argument in a certain way. So alongside goals scored, what stats does the forum resist?

This is an honest question, I am not having a go at you personally. I am perplexed by your fanboy levels towards Lukaku but if you want a debate over this then we need the information that gives you the upper hand in the debate on Lukaku as a player.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Stats don't always tell the whole story but a lot of stats together can certainly point an argument in a certain way. So alongside goals scored, what stats does the forum resist?

This is an honest question, I am not having a go at you personally. I am perplexed by your fanboy levels towards Lukaku but if you want a debate over this then we need the information that gives you the upper hand in the debate on Lukaku as a player.

Literally all of them. Try to talk about any passing or creativity stats and it's largely dismissed out of hand.

I'm confused at what you mean in the second paragraph I'll be honest. Upper hand on what? The whole thing is mad tbh. There will always be an attempt among a section of Evertonians to dismiss him because he doesn't do this or that. I mean Tubey spent an age talking about how no one could ever win a trophy with him and you'll find he doesn't say that anymore. Now it's some ever moving goalposts of big games and top teams. And if he does, which he probably will, score those goals this year it'll move to be more specific.

I know you think I'm going over the top but it's honestly less about the player himself and more about not liking the unfair treatment athletes at large get when groups decide something and don't want to admit they're wrong. It's why for example I was thrilled to see Giannis win the NBA title. Different sport, different continent, same stupidity.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Literally all of them. Try to talk about any passing or creativity stats and it's largely dismissed out of hand.

I'm confused at what you mean in the second paragraph I'll be honest. Upper hand on what? The whole thing is mad tbh. There will always be an attempt among a section of Evertonians to dismiss him because he doesn't do this or that. I mean Tubey spent an age talking about how no one could ever win a trophy with him and you'll find he doesn't say that anymore. Now it's some ever moving goalposts of big games and top teams. And if he does, which he probably will, score those goals this year it'll move to be more specific.

I know you think I'm going over the top but it's honestly less about the player himself and more about not liking the unfair treatment athletes at large get when groups decide something and don't want to admit they're wrong. It's why for example I was thrilled to see Giannis win the NBA title. Different sport, different continent, same stupidity.

You have way to much hyperbole about you to discuss rationally. Firstly no one dismisses what he does, he scores lots of goals. If you put him in our team he would kind of almost guarantee us 5th-ish by getting the goals against the mid level and fodder. The point is would his celling prevent us going further and when he left that was as true as can be. He went to utd and they didn't fancy him in the end either because when the chips are down you need more.

One league title in Italy when Juventus hired a novice manager doesn't end the argument. It's a positive step, it's the first flicker of life to end a wretched return from someone who had been at Chelsea (×3), utd and Inter. He might still become what he should have been from his mid 20's but let's wait and see, I can bet after every time he scores you'll be on here going 'told you so' before anything is proven one way or another.

If you think he's the best thing since sliced bread, great, knock yourself out. What do I care, but if you peddle nonsense you'll be picked up on it.

 

[TheBigIguana]

You have way to much hyperbole about you to discuss rationally. Firstly no one dismisses what he does, he scores lots of goals. If you put him in our team he would kind of almost guarantee us 5th-ish by getting the goals against the mid level and fodder. The point is would his celling prevent us going further and when he left that was as true as can be. He went to utd and they didn't fancy him in the end either because when the chips are down you need more.

One league title in Italy when Juventus hired a novice manager doesn't end the argument. It's a positive step, it's the first flicker of life to end a wretched return from someone who had been at Chelsea (×3), utd and Inter. He might still become what he should have been from his mid 20's but let's wait and see, I can bet after every time he scores you'll be on here going 'told you so' before anything is proven one way or another.

If you think he's the best thing since sliced bread, great, knock yourself out. What do I care, but if you peddle nonsense you'll be picked up on it.

Having to find a way to write off the title he did win and was the actual best player in the league for is more nonsense peddling than everything I've written. Which is the whole point about how the goalposts move. Now it's not he can't win it's he can't win in this league or that league or when Juve have this guy or that guy. And if Chelsea hypothetically win the title this year it'll be "well KdB missed time injured" or "he's in the team with the best defense" or whatever it needs to be to not give him credit. There is no hater proof performance in football. Which going back to the NBA for a second is why the Giannis thing was so cool. He shut everyone down.

 

[wandyr79]

Literally all of them. Try to talk about any passing or creativity stats and it's largely dismissed out of hand.

I'm confused at what you mean in the second paragraph I'll be honest. Upper hand on what? The whole thing is mad tbh. There will always be an attempt among a section of Evertonians to dismiss him because he doesn't do this or that. I mean Tubey spent an age talking about how no one could ever win a trophy with him and you'll find he doesn't say that anymore. Now it's some ever moving goalposts of big games and top teams. And if he does, which he probably will, score those goals this year it'll move to be more specific.

I know you think I'm going over the top but it's honestly less about the player himself and more about not liking the unfair treatment athletes at large get when groups decide something and don't want to admit they're wrong. It's why for example I was thrilled to see Giannis win the NBA title. Different sport, different continent, same stupidity.

1: Unfair treatment? If there is any unfair treatment on this site it is towards a current player in Coleman, a player that has given his absolute all for this club. A former player who scored some goals for us but was always showing an obvious disdain for the club deserves a bit of 'unfair treatment', in my humble opinion.

2: The 2nd paragraph is basically saying you are very quick to defend him and praise him as this all conquering footballer who has no weakness, because of stats, but then all you say is he has scored a few goals. If the stats are there then show it to us. If you feel we are wrong about his weaknesses then show us the stats to back up the counter argument. The opinion about scoring against the top teams and in big games has been proven multiple times on this thread so the stats that back up your argument is something I am sure we would all like to see.

3: Yes, you are going way over the top. As I have mentioned before you sound like a childish fanboy who will never ever hear anything bad about the player you love so dearly. In fact, it is no different to my Sisters reaction when I told her Take That are crap back in the 90's (actually she would probably react the same way now she is in her 40s).

4: How is it stupidity to have an opinion on a footballer, negative or positive. You are right that it can go too far in the defending of that opinion and you are definitely in the silly stakes (I wouldn't be so crass as to say stupid though) with that defence that he is such a great player.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Having to find a way to write off the title he did win and was the actual best player in the league for is more nonsense peddling than everything I've written. Which is the whole point about how the goalposts move. Now it's not he can't win it's he can't win in this league or that league or when Juve have this guy or that guy. And if Chelsea hypothetically win the title this year it'll be "well KdB missed time injured" or "he's in the team with the best defense" or whatever it needs to be to not give him credit. There is no hater proof performance in football. Which going back to the NBA for a second is why the Giannis thing was so cool. He shut everyone down.

Every dog can have it's day and get one, so what? You will completely ignore a pertinent fact that in a two horse league one of the horses shot itself in the foot to suit your narrative. HOWEVER I'm still not saying it's a fluke or it doesn't count, he did well, scored his goals and it's a building block, it goes on the base and then you add the next one and so forth until possibly he reaches the pedestal you put him upon.

Here if kdb is injured, there is the RS, if they are poor utd should be there or thereabouts. So a title will count more but overall it's the sum of the parts that make a body of work. I expect him to be influential in winning cups and push Belgium to the brink of success, they don't have to even win it, all I need to see with my own two eyes is that they don't come off the pitch having lost going well if Rom hadn't missed those two sitters. That's my expectations of a player who has that talent but hasn't shown it consistently enough yet. Like I say you might be easily pleased, or not have seen what a top, top striker looks like.

 

[TheBigIguana]

1: Unfair treatment? If there is any unfair treatment on this site it is towards a current player in Coleman, a player that has given his absolute all for this club. A former player who scored some goals for us but was always showing an obvious disdain for the club deserves a bit of 'unfair treatment', in my humble opinion.

2: The 2nd paragraph is basically saying you are very quick to defend him and praise him as this all conquering footballer who has no weakness, because of stats, but then all you say is he has scored a few goals. If the stats are there then show it to us. If you feel we are wrong about his weaknesses then show us the stats to back up the counter argument. The opinion about scoring against the top teams and in big games has been proven multiple times on this thread so the stats that back up your argument is something I am sure we would all like to see.

3: Yes, you are going way over the top. As I have mentioned before you sound like a childish fanboy who will never ever hear anything bad about the player you love so dearly. In fact, it is no different to my Sisters reaction when I told her Take That are crap back in the 90's (actually she would probably react the same way now she is in her 40s).

4: How is it stupidity to have an opinion on a footballer, negative or positive. You are right that it can go too far in the defending of that opinion and you are definitely in the silly stakes (I wouldn't be so crass as to say stupid though) with that defence that he is such a great player.

1. It's not an Everton specific point.

2. No it really doesn't do that.

3. I've acknowledged his poor moments. I'm not saying he was good in the Europa League final Inter lost. I'm not saying him missing chances at Wembley wasn't bad. What I'm not doing is ignoring the moments that say the opposite of what I think. Do the Lukaku is a choker people do that as well? I'd argue no.

4. Not adjusting your opinion in the face of new information is stupidity. It may have been fair to say Rom can't be relied on in big moments or against the better teams before last season, but then last season happened and he pretty much answered that criticism. Your view should have been adjusted based on it.