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Martinez new Belgium head coach

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Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
It's about consistency

I've never said that Martinez has never had a good league campaign, because he has (Although most of them were in the lower leagues)

However, if we look at his return in top divisions (Which is where he will want to work if he goes back to club football) more of them were bad/stagnant than good

You could argue that happens to a lot of managers, which indeed it does, however if you look at Martinez at both Wigan and Everton, every league campaign was ultimately worse than the previous one or at very best comparable

For instance, in his four seasons at Wigan, his team finished 16, 16th, 15th and 18th

Now yes, Wigan weren't a top side but, when you consider under Bruce they had finished 11th the prior season, that represented an alarming drop off for them. The 15th place was hardly a massive jump up from 16th either. They went from a team comfortably mid table to one constantly fighting relegation, eventually ending in them facing relegation

At Everton, he finished 5th in his first season, 11th in his second and we were 13th as of his sacking. So he took a team regularly looking for Europe and left them as, at best, mid table also ran and, at worse, a club hurtling toward relegation fodder

So that's essentially one good league campaign out of seven in the Premier League

So the suggestion is that the one good league campaign was the aberration when it came to top tier football

Meanwhile, during those same seven seasons he won one Cup and also reached two semi finals, and indeed rarely crashed out in the early stages of cup tournaments. A clear feather in his cap

Therefore you could argue the cup runs were NOT aberrations, and instead argue that Martinez was good in cups but bad in the league, hence international football suits him perfectly

The proof will of course be in the pudding if/when he takes a job at a club again in a top league. He may indeed have a decent start at any new club he joins, especially if he has a strong base to build on. However, the previous form suggests that league finishes will dip and will not recover. This is why I hope he sticks with Belgium, as in that environment I genuinely think he can win something, and good luck to him if he does!
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But 72 points Mikey.
 
davek said:
Indeed. Like that season under him when we won 21 of those 38 games?

Good managers rely on having good players...technically proficient and professional in outlook. Eventually, after 18 months in the job, even Roberto couldn't get a consistent tune out of the dressing room clique.
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How many did we win over the next 2 seasons though?

What was the football like in the last 2 seasons?

Where did we finish in those seasons?
 
MarcelsGoat said:
It was a very good season, it gave us all hope and if it wasnt for that freak weather for the Palace game, well who knows.

But we all know what came after.
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Parked the car and didn't know it was cancelled until I made it to the ground

Got to meet @Baines' left foot though, so it wasn't a total write off

Gave me a ride back to my car and everything. He's a good lad
 

deipnosophist said:
He had experience in dealing with such at Everton. It's now widely known (thanks largely to your tireless investigative efforts) that Bainesy and Capt Jags spent almost his entire tenure at Everton sticking knives in his back....right pair of snakes, those two.
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Job done then.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
It's about consistency

I've never said that Martinez has never had a good league campaign, because he has (Although most of them were in the lower leagues)

However, if we look at his return in top divisions (Which is where he will want to work if he goes back to club football) more of them were bad/stagnant than good

You could argue that happens to a lot of managers, which indeed it does, however if you look at Martinez at both Wigan and Everton, every league campaign was ultimately worse than the previous one or at very best comparable

For instance, in his four seasons at Wigan, his team finished 16, 16th, 15th and 18th

Now yes, Wigan weren't a top side but, when you consider under Bruce they had finished 11th the prior season, that represented an alarming drop off for them. The 15th place was hardly a massive jump up from 16th either. They went from a team comfortably mid table to one constantly fighting relegation, eventually ending in them facing relegation

At Everton, he finished 5th in his first season, 11th in his second and we were 13th as of his sacking. So he took a team regularly looking for Europe and left them as, at best, mid table also ran and, at worse, a club hurtling toward relegation fodder

So that's essentially one good league campaign out of seven in the Premier League

So the suggestion is that the one good league campaign was the aberration when it came to top tier football

Meanwhile, during those same seven seasons he won one Cup and also reached two semi finals, and indeed rarely crashed out in the early stages of cup tournaments. A clear feather in his cap

Therefore you could argue the cup runs were NOT aberrations, and instead argue that Martinez was good in cups but bad in the league, hence international football suits him perfectly

The proof will of course be in the pudding if/when he takes a job at a club again in a top league. He may indeed have a decent start at any new club he joins, especially if he has a strong base to build on. However, the previous form suggests that league finishes will dip and will not recover. This is why I hope he sticks with Belgium, as in that environment I genuinely think he can win something, and good luck to him if he does!
Click to expand...

But hold on, you've moved the goalposts here. Here's what you claimed originally:

"Cups are different to Leagues as well, and require different tactical approaches. You have to succeed in 38 games in a League against fixed opposition".

You mentioned nothing about multiple seasons.

The point you made was correct, btw. A league campaign is much more of a test of a manager than a cup campaign. But the man has done both...and you now choose to tweak your original remit for judging league performance. That's like saying Howard Kendall was questionable as a league manager because his last season here had us finishing just above relegation.
 
davek said:
The point you made was correct, btw. A league campaign is much more of a test of a manager than a cup campaign. But the man has done both...and you now choose to tweak your original remit for judging league performance. That's like saying Howard Kendall was questionable as a league manager because his last season here had us finishing just above relegation.
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If we used that criteria then Alan Pardew is on the same level as Martinez because he had one good season with Newcastle and made a Cup Final with Palace

It was implied that I meant the body of Martinez's work in the top tier, in both cup and league, not just the one season. Anyone can have one good season

I'd have to be insane to base my hypthoesis on just one seasons return Dave, I considered it read that I wasn't. You're being deliberately obtuse in order to deflect from the issue I fear
 

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
If we used that criteria then Alan Pardew is on the same level as Martinez because he had one good season with Newcastle and made a Cup Final with Palace

It was implied that I meant the body of Martinez's work in the top tier, in both cup and league, not just the one season. Anyone can have one good season

I'd have to be insane to base my hypthoesis on just one seasons return Dave, I considered it read that I wasn't. You're being deliberately obtuse in order to deflect from the issue I fear
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Hardly comparing like with like there really, are you?
 
davek said:
Hardly comparing like with like there really, are you?
Click to expand...

Pretty similar Dave

Got Newcastle fifth didn't he and got a team in the relegation dog fight to the FA Cup Final

Under your criteria, he had as good a League season for Newcastle as Martinez did for us

They even played some nice togger along the way if I recall...

That's why you can't base it on one season (Which you probably aren't but thought I'd cover the bases ;) )
 

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